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Old 07-11-2010, 09:04 PM   #91
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For God so loved the world
he gave a yawn, took a nap
woke up, grabbed the remote for World of Warcraft
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Old 07-11-2010, 09:49 PM   #92
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^What if God was one of us.
Just a slob like one of us.
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Old 07-11-2010, 10:06 PM   #93
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God is a concept by which we measure our pain - J. Lennon.
Not for me.......My spiritual path is what I freely choose. A private issue. Don't believe in any kind of "conversion" or see it my way. Religion, non-religion. I make up my own mind.

Don't see it the way that Lennon did either. Great songwriter. But, He. Nor does anyone else have the right to tell me what to believe. Or not to believe.
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Old 07-11-2010, 10:15 PM   #94
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He, nor does anyone else have the right to tell me what to believe. Or not to believe.
Right. But most instances of "forced beliefs" occur with religious people doing so to the nonreligious, not the other way around.

Just think of how much political debate includes religion.
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Old 07-11-2010, 10:26 PM   #95
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Right. But most instances of "forced beliefs" occur with religious people doing so to the nonreligious, not the other way around.

Just think of how much political debate includes religion.
I agree and it is wrong. It is not something I would do. That was why I said. I don't believe in "conversion" or see it my way. In any circumstance.

Spirituality is personal. A path, I choose. But, would never force it on anyone else. This would go against everything I believe in.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:09 PM   #96
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I agree and it is wrong. It is not something I would do. That was why I said. I don't believe in "conversion" or see it my way. In any circumstance.

Spirituality is personal. A path, I choose. But, would never force it on anyone else. This would go against everything I believe in.
I'll tell you what I do worry about, though, and that's the lack of community values and sheer amoral callousness of, erhm (without wanting to read like a fourth rate sociology treatise ) contemporary early 21st century western society.

There does seem to be a correlation between these developments and the decline in religious worship - not necessarily a causation. I think that's part of what U2 were getting at with albums like 'Zooropa' and 'Pop'. I think that the kinds of trends they were speaking about in those albums, are unfortunately, worse now than back in the mid 1990s. The whole celebrity culture thing, for example.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:12 PM   #97
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COEXIST is untenable
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Muslim Mob Kills Wife, Children of Christian in Pakistan


Fearing local religious leader, area police refuse to file murder complaint.
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, July 8 (Compass Direct News) – A Muslim mob in Jhelum, Pakistan murdered the wife and four children of a Christian last month, but local authorities are too afraid of the local Muslim leader to file charges, according to area Muslim and Christian sources.

Jamshed Masih, a police officer who was transferred 50 kilometers (31 miles) from Gujrat to Jhelum, Punjab Province, said a mob led by Muslim religious leader Maulana Mahfooz Khan killed his family on June 21 after Khan called him to the local mosque and told him to leave the predominantly Muslim colony. Jhelum is 85 kilometers (53 miles) south of Islamabad.

“You must leave with your family, no non-Muslim has ever been allowed to live in this colony – we want to keep our colony safe from scum,” Khan told Masih, the bereaved Christian told Compass.

Masih had moved to Mustafa Colony in Jhelum with his wife, two sons and two daughters and were living in a rented house. Masih said that a Muslim neighbor, Ali Murtaza, told him that area Muslims notified Khan, telling the religious leader, “We cannot allow these non-Muslims to live here, they will be a bad influence on our children.”

An anxious Masih told his wife Razia Jamshed about the local Muslim response, and they decided to bring their concern to the pastor of a local Presbyterian Church, Saleem Mall.

“Pastor Saleem said, ‘I will also advise you to vacate the house, as it can be dangerous living there – these people can harm your family,” Masih said.

Masih’s neighbor, Murtaza, confirmed to Compass the response of the local Muslims and related incidents that led up to the murders. Murtaza told Compass that after Masih went to work at 7 a.m. on June 21, his children could be heard singing hymns before breakfast.

“Razia sent their eldest son to buy a packet of Surf [detergent], and he was singing a hymn on his way to buy the Surf,” Murtaza said.

Neighbors saw Masih’s s 11-year-old son come into the store, he said. The shopkeeper asked him if he was a Christian; the child responded that he was.

“The shopkeeper refused to give him the packet of Surf and spoke very harshly to him, ‘I don’t sell to any non-Muslim, you are not welcome here, don’t you dare ever come to my shop again,’” Murtaza said.

The boy went home, upset, and told his mother about the encounter; she grew worried and called her husband, saying, “Jamshed, please come home quickly, the kids and I are very worried, we must leave this house today,” Masih said.

His neighbor, Murtaza, said that shortly afterward some area residents came to the door with the Muslim religious leader, Khan.

“Your son has committed blasphemy against Muhammad, our beloved prophet – we can’t allow him to live, he should be punished,” Khan told Razia Masih, Murtaza said. “Razia got scared and said, ‘My son couldn’t do such a thing, he is only 11 years old.’”

Khan became furious and said, “Are we lying to you? You call us liars, how dare you insult us,” Murtaza said. “Someone from the crowd hit something hard on her head, and she started bleeding. The children started crying and shouted for help. Razia kept shouting for help, ‘Please have mercy on us, please let my husband come, then we can talk.’”

Jamshed Masih said his daughter telephoned police as the mob attacked his wife and children. He said he later learned that “the people kept shouting, ‘This family has committed blasphemy, they should be killed.”

Before police arrived, his family was murdered, he said.

Murtaza said Masih rushed home and was devastated to find the dead bodies of his wife and four children.

When Masih tried to file a complaint against Khan for the murder, Station House Officer (SHO) Ramzan Mumtaz refused to do so, according to Murtaza and Mall, the Presbyterian clergyman.

“He said, ‘Khan is an influential man, and he said your son has committed blasphemy – we cannot do anything against him,’” Mall said.

Murtaza added, “The SHO just said, ‘I am a poor man, I have a family, and I was pressured by higher authorities not to register the FIR [First Information Report] as Khan is a very influential man. I am sorry, I don’t have anything in my hands.’”

Contacted by Compass, SHO Mumtaz confirmed that he responded to the request to file the complaint against Khan in these exact words.

Masih has filed a complaint with the chief minister of Punjab Province begging him for justice, Mall told Compass.

“We condemn this brutal murder of innocent children in the name of Islam,” Mall said. “This has to stop now. We appeal to the government to let us live in peace.”
Muslim Mob Kills Wife, Children of Christian in Pakistan
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:16 PM   #98
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^ Ok. But, even though I'm not a believer, I think it's too easy to blame religion solely for these kinds of incidents.

It's really just mob mentality and the tribal instinct, which seems to be innate in human nature. Religion at times gives people the excuse to behave badly.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:19 PM   #99
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Your right about the tribe mentality, but I'm not sure that religion is as much of an excuse as an extension of that.
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:07 PM   #100
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Apparently the source for that story is pretty bogus which is good news.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:13 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
I'll tell you what I do worry about, though, and that's the lack of community values and sheer amoral callousness of, erhm (without wanting to read like a fourth rate sociology treatise ) contemporary early 21st century western society.

There does seem to be a correlation between these developments and the decline in religious worship - not necessarily a causation. I think that's part of what U2 were getting at with albums like 'Zooropa' and 'Pop'. I think that the kinds of trends they were speaking about in those albums, are unfortunately, worse now than back in the mid 1990s. The whole celebrity culture thing, for example.
I've kind of noticed that, too. It seems with individualism becoming more important in society, there's more selfishness going around.

As for celebrity culture, I saw a quote that said something like, anyone with self-esteem would not model themselves after a celebrity, or something like that.

There's more I would like to discuss on this topic, but that's a whole new thread.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:16 PM   #102
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I'll tell you what I do worry about, though, and that's the lack of community values and sheer amoral callousness of, erhm (without wanting to read like a fourth rate sociology treatise ) contemporary early 21st century western society.

There does seem to be a correlation between these developments and the decline in religious worship - not necessarily a causation. I think that's part of what U2 were getting at with albums like 'Zooropa' and 'Pop'. I think that the kinds of trends they were speaking about in those albums, are unfortunately, worse now than back in the mid 1990s. The whole celebrity culture thing, for example.
I don't understand. What you are saying to me.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:39 PM   #103
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I don't understand. What you are saying to me.
He means that it's not exactly popular these days to have religious values and morals included in popular culture, like when Zooropa and Pop ventured away from spirituality to more down to earth matters.
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Old 07-14-2010, 01:10 PM   #104
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Thank you! Now, I understand.
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Old 07-14-2010, 01:34 PM   #105
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Thank you! Now, I understand.
This has no bearing on the conversation, but is there, any reason. why, you always misplace, commas and periods in your sentences? It makes it, hard to read.sometimes.
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