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Old 07-05-2010, 01:47 PM   #31
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perhaps my hilarious brand of humour got lost in that particular post.

i doubt it. sarcasm is generally regarded as the highest form of wit.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:57 PM   #32
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perhaps my hilarious brand of humour got lost in that particular post.

i doubt it. sarcasm is generally regarded as the highest form of wit.
Your sarcasm was duly noted.
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Old 07-05-2010, 02:19 PM   #33
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Old 07-05-2010, 02:51 PM   #34
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I see nothing wrong with what Belgium's police did. As I mentioned once before in another thread, I am appalled that the Vatican does/did nothing to stop the sex abuse by its priests. I'm even considering leaving the Catholic Church because of that. But I hesitate due to family and friends connections to the Church.
That really sucks that your family and friends might judge you for whatever decision you make surrounding the Church. You have to do what's right for you, if they have a problem with it, well, then, I guess that's their issue to deal with. I can fully understand staying because you like the people you're among, or because there's some other aspect of going to church you like. You can still be Catholic and not at all endorse the psychotic event that is this pedophilia ring. Those assholes are the people who aren't representing the Catholic faith the right way, they're not true examples of the Catholic faith, not you. You and other decent Catholics shouldn't be the ones who have to leave, they and the people who covered it up should be (they should be in jail for the rest of their lives).

But if you wish to leave the Church, too, I definitely understand that as well. I just hope whatever decision you make, it's something you want to do, and I hope that everyone learns to respect your choice .

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Maybe they are frustrated that some people are willing to do evil things in the name of God, but my experience with atheists has not been a good one. I have yet to meet an atheist who does not harbor anger and hate towards someone who does believe in God. I find it funny that when an atheist complains about the hate some theists have towards certain people, yet when an atheist rants against religious people, they say basically the same thing.
I'm sorry about that. You're right, if they want respect shown towards their views, they should show it to others as well, you deserve as much respect as they do. I have met decent atheists out there, they exist-saw one on Bill Maher's show a while back sticking up for religious people, she got into a good debate with Bill over that. Hopefully you'll come across some of them down the line.

I just think the arguing and smugness people on both sides present is so pointless. Everyone's entitled to think whatever they want about God and the afterlife and all that jazz, but nobody's going to know until the end, if at all, so let's all just enjoy our time on this earth and quit yelling at each other and fighting about this stuff.

Angela
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Old 07-05-2010, 03:01 PM   #35
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YES.

Those that blindly follow, there's no questioning, there's no hesitation, there's no, "Uh, yeah, this is cruel and I won't be party to it", they just go, "Okay" and do it. Shoot first, ask questions later. Not the way I'd suggest living life, but that's just me.

Angela
Isn't the issue here really less about God's "reality" and more about the willingness to act cruelly in order to gain the approval of someone else. After all, I'm sure you're not arguing that if the party making the immoral commands were a human being, it would be okay to go ahead and do it. People have made choices to hurt others at the commands of other human beings too, not only at the perceived command of God.

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What would you do if it was a non-religious institution?
Who's to say she wouldn't do the same thing? Again the issue is not the "reality" of God so much as her desire to preserve a good relationship with her parents. If you'd like to judge her as wrong for making that tough choice, that's up to you.

I'd be really interested in meeting an atheist who would sincerely like to believe, that finds belief deeply appealing, but intellectually just can't (or vice versa, a believer who really would like to be an atheist but can't because they are compelled by the reality of God), but I've yet to meet one. Every Western atheist I've met, at root finds the belief systems they disbelieve deplorable and in some case are very angry at those systems. (The atheists I've met from China however, who were raised in a completely atheist environment seem to have none of the hostility that so many Western atheists do towards religion. They may be curious, or not interested at all, but the hostility is absent.) So I find the "unsound ideas" argument to be a bit self-serving.

In the words of that great sage Tom Petty, "you believe what you want to believe." I think that's true of both believers and non-believers alike.

And that's not self-serving.
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Old 07-05-2010, 03:15 PM   #36
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There seems to be a lot of talk in here about atheists being angry. I really cant understand this. For the most part, I think its either a) a theists prejudice or b) mistaking frustration for anger. For the most part, the atheists I know are perfectly content to live and let others live; It's when religion as a whole infringes on matters that should remain nonreligious (ie the whole 'teach the controversy' nonsense), that the frustration begins to bubble over
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Old 07-05-2010, 03:52 PM   #37
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Isn't the issue here really less about God's "reality" and more about the willingness to act cruelly in order to gain the approval of someone else. After all, I'm sure you're not arguing that if the party making the immoral commands were a human being, it would be okay to go ahead and do it. People have made choices to hurt others at the commands of other human beings too, not only at the perceived command of God.
Oh, absolutely! Just that since the issue here is revolving around religion, I'm mainly focusing on God, but yes, you're completely right about that, too, and I've said that many times before as well. No matter what the leader, be it God, the president, a CEO, whatever, if they're asking a person to believe or do something that doesn't sit right with said person, it's time to speak up. I said this on some other site a while back-anyone that blindly trusts anybody or anything and never questions either is somebody who shouldn't be trusted. I would be very wary of those people, just as I would those above them who are ordering them to do all sorts of horrible things.

Angela
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Old 07-05-2010, 04:04 PM   #38
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There seems to be a lot of talk in here about atheists being angry. I really cant understand this. For the most part, I think its either a) a theists prejudice or b) mistaking frustration for anger. For the most part, the atheists I know are perfectly content to live and let others live; It's when religion as a whole infringes on matters that should remain nonreligious (ie the whole 'teach the controversy' nonsense), that the frustration begins to bubble over
Okay, frustrated then.

My brother is an atheist and seems neither angry or frustrated. Thus the "in some cases" in my post.

I stand by my original assessment though. Believers believe because they like what they believe in. Atheists don't believe--at least in part--because they dislike what they disbelieve.
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:43 PM   #39
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Atheists don't believe--at least in part--because they dislike what they disbelieve.
Thats not fair. The majority of religious people I know are quite outspoken about their dislike of the atheist world view. Look at any conversation on religion vs atheism and it inevitably comes up

And 'in some cases' doesnt discount the purpose of your post; that atheists are angry. I think its just that the types of conversations you have with atheists often bring out the frustration and thus, paint your picture of atheists.
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:47 PM   #40
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i'm actually convinced a_wanderer is a repressed christian.

he's fighting it long and hard... it's like he's trying to convince himself he's not.

let's just pet him on the head, leave the room, and maybe he'll come to terms with the real "a_wanderer".
Would disagree, a search for truth is not necessarily the same thing as a search for God.

Occasionally, atheists veer towards religion in their old age, such as the philosopher Anthony Flew, but they're a minority.

Sorry to disappoint you.
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:52 PM   #41
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oh. well then you win, financeguy.
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Old 07-05-2010, 06:06 PM   #42
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Thats not fair. The majority of religious people I know are quite outspoken about their dislike of the atheist world view. Look at any conversation on religion vs atheism and it inevitably comes up

And 'in some cases' doesnt discount the purpose of your post; that atheists are angry. I think its just that the types of conversations you have with atheists often bring out the frustration and thus, paint your picture of atheists.
Uh, no.

The purpose of my point was NOT that atheists are angry. The point of my post was that everyone--believers and nonbelievers alike--believe what they want to believe. Your own observation about religious people supports that theory.

I don't care for the division of good guys on the hand, tolerant, loving, happy, and open-minded on the one hand, and the bad guys, intolerant, hateful,miserable, and close-minded on the other regardless of who the labels apply to. Whichever side adopts these labels is self-serving, regardless of which side does it.

I'm curious to know what kinds of conversations you think I'm having with atheists that bring out this frustration, though.
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Old 07-05-2010, 06:31 PM   #43
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Easy there, angry religious guy

c'mon, man, you responded to my post to concede that they werent angry, but frustrated. Ergo you must think that at least a large portion of them fall into that category. Its okay if you think that, I'm just giving you reasons why that might not be true. The conversations I think you're having with atheists are probably the same kind that go on in here. Ones that inevitably lead to religion's place in society, school, etc. and to where the frustration starts to show. I'm sure if you talked to the same non religious people outside of that topic, you would find the majority neither angry or frustrated
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Old 07-05-2010, 07:47 PM   #44
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I have to admit I probably am in the "angry atheist" camp... the way I see it, even after all that has happened in terms of the abuse scandals, my country is still being run by Catholic bigots:

Quote:
ATHEISTS HAVE begun a campaign against the Government’s new blasphemy law, which came into force on January 1st as part of the Defamation Act.

The group Atheist Ireland has published 25 quotes it says are blasphemous, attributed to people from Jesus Christ to Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern.

Under the new law, which the group is campaigning to have repealed, blasphemy is punishable by a fine of up to €25,000.

It defines blasphemy as publishing or uttering matter grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby intentionally causing outrage among a substantial number of adherents of that religion, and intending by such publication to cause such outrage.
Atheists rally over blasphemy law - The Irish Times - Mon, Jan 04, 2010


With respect to the arguments that have been made that angry atheists must have some deep-seated issues, and that their anger is more about them than anything that is going on in the real world, most of these arguments, it seems to me, are coming from posters living in the US - a secular country that, to its enormous credit, is one of the few on the planet to have genuine separation between church and state.

This separation between church and state doesn't necessarily apply in Europe - and it isn't just Ireland I'm talking about; in Italy, to this day, you'd want to be careful about being overly critical of the RC church in public, it isn't illegal as such, but it won't win too many friends in high places:

Atheist Bus Ad Campaign Banned in Italy By Church | World News | Sky News



We don't necessarily want to get rid of Christianity. We just want a level playing field.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:21 PM   #45
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And I think that's a fair thing to ask for. And this is where I start to see the atheists' point of view (as of this time I think I'm moving more and more into the agnostic camp, but there are days...). I think you have a point, too, regarding where the various viewpoints are coming from (and this makes me even more happy that we have the separation of church and state idea).

Geez, a FINE for blasphemy? Ugh. That's about one of the dumbest laws I've ever heard of, just flat out ridiculous. I guess my question now is, if those religious people are that sure of themselves, why then would someone making a blasphemous (which, by the way, can be a matter of opinion) remark bother them THAT much?

Angela
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