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Old 07-04-2010, 10:07 PM   #16
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Perhaps another instance of what makes atheists so darn angry
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Police investigating claims of child abuse by Belgian clergy have told the BBC they are probing death threats against witnesses and magistrates.

Last month police raided a meeting of Belgium's Catholic bishops as part of their investigation, seizing computers and documents.

They even searched the tomb of at least one cardinal, prompting an angry response from the Vatican.

The country is one of several where the Church has been shaken by abuse claims.

The investigation into child abuse allegations in Belgium's Catholic Church has already prompted extraordinary scenes, says the BBC's Dominic Hughes in Brussels.

But now the investigation has taken an unexpected turn.

Officials say that police are also looking into threats to the lives of some witnesses and magistrates connected to the case.

Jean Marc Meillure, a spokesman for the public prosecutors office, confirmed that an investigation was under way.

"There are some threats against certain people around the case, and the prosecutors office is investigating that," he told the BBC.

He said the threats had been made against people who gave the authorities information or made a complaint, or against some magistrates.


The raid last month on the offices of a Church commission investigating the abuse claims led to some of the country's leading clergy being detained for nine hours.

Police took away their mobile telephones to prevent them communicating with their staff or with the Vatican.

They were also reported to have drilled into the tomb of at a former Belgian cardinal at the cathedral in Mechelen during what seems to have been a frenetic search for possible incriminating documents.

Officers also raided the nearby home of the recently retired archbishop of Belgium, Cardinal Godfried Danneels, seizing paperwork and his computer.

The allegations of child abuse by priests in Belgium are just the latest in a string of similar cases that have hit the Catholic Church in Europe and North America.
BBC News - Belgian child sex abuse police probe death threats

I know it's really narrow minded of me to have a problem with this. Those freedom fighters are acting without the consent of holy mother church, and it can't be pinned on the vatican.

I implore all atheists to show more respect to these institutions. Getting angry about petty things like child rape is a sure sign of fundamentalism, and it makes you just as bad as suicide bombers.

Belgium is a Stalinist regime that is enforcing state atheism by looking into these claims and holding a church to relativist human standards.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:01 AM   #17
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I have often thought that atheists are angry( not all, but seems like many ) because they lack anything that gives them faith. Faith, be it a door knob, or something else is an essential emotional element. If one has no faith, is there hope? Everyone has to believe in something, be it yourself, or whatever they choose.

The hate.... I can't stand. Hate is anger. If someone is angry , it usually means somethings missing, or one goes into the other emotions that result from Hate or anger. I wouldnt want to live that way. From what I have experienced and see, I couldn't.
This is an incredibly poor post. Just no basis in reality at all. This reads like a kneejerk reaction without any thought. Not even an attempt to understand another point of view.
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:02 AM   #18
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Perhaps another instance of what makes atheists so darn angryBBC News - Belgian child sex abuse police probe death threats
YES.

Course, I should think anyone, religious (doesn't matter which god(s) you pray to), agnostic, or atheist, that is sane and has anything resembling a brain would be offended by this. Anyone who isn't, well, they're obviously the cause of the problem.

I can't speak for all atheists, some may rant out of prejudice towards theists or because they're deeply insecure about their beliefs or whatever, but I honestly think most atheists' rants are born out of frustration at how otherwise intelligent people will be stupid enough to be willing to believe and do certain things all in the name of some god(s) that may or may not exist. It really is mind-blowingly insane some of the stuff you can convince people to do because some being in the sky supposedly said you should do it. Those that blindly follow, there's no questioning, there's no hesitation, there's no, "Uh, yeah, this is cruel and I won't be party to it", they just go, "Okay" and do it. Shoot first, ask questions later. Not the way I'd suggest living life, but that's just me.

Angela
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:35 AM   #19
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I see nothing wrong with what Belgium's police did. As I mentioned once before in another thread, I am appalled that the Vatican does/did nothing to stop the sex abuse by its priests. I'm even considering leaving the Catholic Church because of that. But I hesitate due to family and friends connections to the Church.

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I can't speak for all atheists, some may rant out of prejudice towards theists or because they're deeply insecure about their beliefs or whatever, but I honestly think most atheists' rants are born out of frustration at how otherwise intelligent people will be stupid enough to be willing to believe and do certain things all in the name of some god(s) that may or may not exist. It really is mind-blowingly insane some of the stuff you can convince people to do because some being in the sky supposedly said you should do it. Those that blindly follow, there's no questioning, there's no hesitation, there's no, "Uh, yeah, this is cruel and I won't be party to it", they just go, "Okay" and do it. Shoot first, ask questions later. Not the way I'd suggest living life, but that's just me.
Maybe they are frustrated that some people are willing to do evil things in the name of God, but my experience with atheists has not been a good one. I have yet to meet an atheist who does not harbor anger and hate towards someone who does believe in God. I find it funny that when an atheist complains about the hate some theists have towards certain people, yet when an atheist rants against religious people, they say basically the same thing.
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Old 07-05-2010, 10:00 AM   #20
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Most atheists don't think people they disagree with are going to hell. Nor do they think they are privileged with special knowledge. Many atheists don't think humans are fundamentally evil. Quite a few atheists have been known to love other people.

I don't think religious people are generally bad, but I think they have fundamentally unsound ideas about how we ought to look at the universe.

Pearl you're demonstrating how a good person can be exploited into endorsing criminal organisations. You're a good person so why should you be compelled to go to church and give that institution the power of numbers? You stated that you feel conflicted but take a step back and weigh up what you would consider the moral position without the religious considerations.

What would you do if it was a non-religious institution?

What would you do if you were an atheist?

You are a human being that can make informed decisions without arguments from authority or revelation; make the most of it and do the right thing.
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Old 07-05-2010, 10:10 AM   #21
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Most atheists don't think people they disagree with are going to hell. Nor do they think they are privileged with special knowledge. Many atheists don't think humans are fundamentally evil. Quite a few atheists have been known to love other people.

I don't think religious people are generally bad, but I think they have fundamentally unsound ideas about how we ought to look at the universe.
I'm glad to hear this coming from you.

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Pearl you're demonstrating how a good person can be exploited into endorsing criminal organisations. You're a good person so why should you be compelled to go to church and give that institution the power of numbers? You stated that you feel conflicted but take a step back and weigh up what you would consider the moral position without the religious considerations.

What would you do if it was a non-religious institution?

What would you do if you were an atheist?

You are a human being that can make informed decisions without arguments from authority or revelation; make the most of it and do the right thing.
I don't go to church for the sake of the institution; I do it for God.

As for whether I should leave the Catholic Church, I know my parents would be very upset if I left because of the sex abuse. They see the problem as a conspiracy to destroy the Church. Its insane, but that is how they see it. If I were to announce I was leaving Catholicism for another church, my parents would probably not speak to me for a long time.

I think the person who would understand my position would be PhilsFan. And I want to take the time to apologize to him for ever seemingly criticizing him for staying with the Church even though he is an atheist. If I offended you, PhilsFan, I'm sorry. Ever since the abuse was revealed, I've been understanding why you still go the church for your parents' sake.
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:28 AM   #22
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I don't go to church for the sake of the institution; I do it for God.

As for whether I should leave the Catholic Church, I know my parents would be very upset if I left because of the sex abuse. They see the problem as a conspiracy to destroy the Church. Its insane, but that is how they see it. If I were to announce I was leaving Catholicism for another church, my parents would probably not speak to me for a long time.

I think the person who would understand my position would be PhilsFan. And I want to take the time to apologize to him for ever seemingly criticizing him for staying with the Church even though he is an atheist. If I offended you, PhilsFan, I'm sorry. Ever since the abuse was revealed, I've been understanding why you still go the church for your parents' sake.
I was raised in an Italian Catholic household, and went to church, was baptised, had communion, was confirmed, and all that.

As I got older, I began to become disenfranchised with certain teachings of Catholic doctrine, specifically on homosexuality and contraception, that did not match my own personal feelings on those topics. I eventually left the church and no longer do I consider myself a practising Catholic. The sex abuse scandal only further validated my decision.

I respect people for staying for the reasons they do, but I, personally, couldn't care less about what my family thinks. This was about me and my own personal comfort level with what the church was teaching. I don't regret leaving one bit.
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Old 07-05-2010, 12:19 PM   #23
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I think the person who would understand my position would be PhilsFan. And I want to take the time to apologize to him for ever seemingly criticizing him for staying with the Church even though he is an atheist. If I offended you, PhilsFan, I'm sorry. Ever since the abuse was revealed, I've been understanding why you still go the church for your parents' sake.
I've never been offended by anything on here, so don't worry yourself at all. And I'm glad that you can understand better, here's hoping everything works out for you guys.
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Old 07-05-2010, 12:21 PM   #24
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I was raised in an Italian Catholic household, and went to church, was baptised, had communion, was confirmed, and all that.

As I got older, I began to become disenfranchised with certain teachings of Catholic doctrine, specifically on homosexuality and contraception, that did not match my own personal feelings on those topics. I eventually left the church and no longer do I consider myself a practising Catholic. The sex abuse scandal only further validated my decision.

I respect people for staying for the reasons they do, but I, personally, couldn't care less about what my family thinks. This was about me and my own personal comfort level with what the church was teaching. I don't regret leaving one bit.
There's only one thing in the world that would cause my mother to disown me, and I think it would be leaving the Church. She's not a preachy religious type at all, but she's very stern in her beliefs. For me, it's much easier to continue the facade that I accept all the Church's stances and to spend the three months of summer going to church than it would be to explain why I'm more of an agnostic or atheist now. Is it inconvenient sometimes? Yes. Is it uncomfortable for me to sit through some homilies that I totally disagree with? Absolutely. But I do inherently enjoy the company of Catholic people, I've met a ton of good people through being involved with CYO for nearly ten years now, so it's certainly not all bad.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:15 PM   #25
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I don't go to church for the sake of the institution; I do it for God.
How would a moral entity react to it? Would any ethical deity look kindly upon the Catholic Church?
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As for whether I should leave the Catholic Church, I know my parents would be very upset if I left because of the sex abuse. They see the problem as a conspiracy to destroy the Church. Its insane, but that is how they see it. If I were to announce I was leaving Catholicism for another church, my parents would probably not speak to me for a long time.
This trapping is a feature of effective religions because it helps keep people in the institutions. It isn't intelligently designed but it's an attribute which sticks around once it occurs because it keeps perpetuating itself.

If you looked at a cult which excommunicated members and pitted family members against each-other from the outside how would you react?
Quote:
I think the person who would understand my position would be PhilsFan. And I want to take the time to apologize to him for ever seemingly criticizing him for staying with the Church even though he is an atheist. If I offended you, PhilsFan, I'm sorry. Ever since the abuse was revealed, I've been understanding why you still go the church for your parents' sake.
I enjoy the luxury of not being inculcated with religion from a young age. My partner on the other hand had to suffer the emotional abuse which came with leaving the church, and it gives me nothing but contempt for the institution and the mind-warping effects it has on otherwise decent people.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:34 PM   #26
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a_wanderer, every time i come here it's pretty much the same with you. your incessant drivel against christians is a treat to read.

i want you to know... i want to affirm to you that you're doing something positive with your free time. you're making a real difference posting these things on this messageboard, a_wanderer. you're opening hearts and minds. a true inspiration to the rest of us who (most unfortunately) stumble upon here now and again.

you're clearly well-read and the wisdom you bestow on your fellow messageboard peers is cherished.

i, for one, cannot wait for your next instalment of compassionate critiquing. thanks again for doing what you do.

haha

yes, right then. if someone half as obnoxious as you existed in my real world they would need fucking aircrash investigators to put them back together.

fuckity-bye
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:39 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
Perhaps another instance of what makes atheists so darn angryBBC News - Belgian child sex abuse police probe death threats

I know it's really narrow minded of me to have a problem with this. Those freedom fighters are acting without the consent of holy mother church, and it can't be pinned on the vatican.

I implore all atheists to show more respect to these institutions. Getting angry about petty things like child rape is a sure sign of fundamentalism, and it makes you just as bad as suicide bombers.

Belgium is a Stalinist regime that is enforcing state atheism by looking into these claims and holding a church to relativist human standards.
Straw man, a little bit?

I mean how many Christians are actually making this insane kind of argument.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Zoomerang96 View Post
a_wanderer, every time i come here it's pretty much the same with you. your incessant drivel against christians is a treat to read.

i want you to know... i want to affirm to you that you're doing something positive with your free time. you're making a real difference posting these things on this messageboard, a_wanderer. you're opening hearts and minds. a true inspiration to the rest of us who (most unfortunately) stumble upon here now and again.

you're clearly well-read and the wisdom you bestow on your fellow messageboard peers is cherished.

i, for one, cannot wait for your next instalment of compassionate critiquing. thanks again for doing what you do.

haha

yes, right then. if someone half as obnoxious as you existed in my real world they would need fucking aircrash investigators to put them back together.

fuckity-bye
and to be clear, this bit about aircrash investigators is not a threat of any sort. i've lost every fight i've entered, whether it was of the physical or verbal variety.

ask anyone who's ever spoken to me... i can make them look/sound good faster than england can exit a world cup.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:42 PM   #29
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Straw man, a little bit?

I mean how many Christians are actually making this insane kind of argument.
i'm actually convinced a_wanderer is a repressed christian.

he's fighting it long and hard... it's like he's trying to convince himself he's not.

let's just pet him on the head, leave the room, and maybe he'll come to terms with the real "a_wanderer".
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Zoomerang96 View Post
a_wanderer, every time i come here it's pretty much the same with you. your incessant drivel against christians is a treat to read.

i want you to know... i want to affirm to you that you're doing something positive with your free time. you're making a real difference posting these things on this messageboard, a_wanderer. you're opening hearts and minds. a true inspiration to the rest of us who (most unfortunately) stumble upon here now and again.

you're clearly well-read and the wisdom you bestow on your fellow messageboard peers is cherished.

i, for one, cannot wait for your next instalment of compassionate critiquing. thanks again for doing what you do.

haha

yes, right then. if someone half as obnoxious as you existed in my real world they would need fucking aircrash investigators to put them back together.

fuckity-bye
Whoa, slow down pal. At best this would be some serious pot-kettle issues.

This is kind of like being black and trying to explain that all black folks aren't criminals and then you see some guy doing a perp walk on the five o clock news, and you're like. . .awww man.
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