Chinese people should change their names

[Galeongirl]

if English is good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for a Chinese immigrant.

simple as that.

You are aware that Jesus didn't speak English right? That your bible is just a translation of Hebrew right?


I really hope you are joking with this.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Guys, even as a pathetic lurker of long standing, I feel safe in assuring you that Irvine is being ironic and does not hold the opinions you appear to think.

As a lurker of long standing, I have learnt that irony is almost impossible to convey online, but a posting history helps. Of course an audience aware of said history also helps.

Ok, that's me done, gang!

UK Declared Dead For Third Time in A Week.

 

[Angela Harlem]

And Chinese names are not impossible to pronounce, their spelling is just intimidating, imo (and I am not Chinese, btw).

I beg to differ. Pronunciation of the alphabet in Pinyin is extremely different and difficult to learn for an English person. There are 4 tones, and each one is unique and requires a long time to actually perfect. English speakers apply their own language rules, and it's just not correct to do so. It's the same as English names being stuffed up all the time, in either pronunciation or title. I get called Anne, instead of Anna, which drives me up the fucking wall, and my daughter gets 'Naddaly' instead of Natalie. It is unbelievable just how many people do not enunciate the 't' in her name. She already despises it, and she's only 6. So, I reckon when we master our own language and then others, then maybe we can complain about efficiency of learning multiple ways of pronouncing things!

 

[RedRocksU2]

I really hope you are joking with this.

He is.

 

[yolland]

Pronunciation of the alphabet in Pinyin is extremely different and difficult to learn for an English person. There are 4 tones, and each one is unique and requires a long time to actually perfect. English speakers apply their own language rules, and it's just not correct to do so.

And 6 tones in the case of Cantonese, which in the US is by far the most common mother tongue of the Chinese immigrant community. Vietnamese also has 6 tones and that's another quite widespread mother tongue here.

Just because you gamely take a shot at reading off an unfamiliar name based on what standard English pronunciation conventions lead you to expect, or do your best to imitiate the way that person pronounces it, doesn't mean you'll even come close to getting it right, whether they feel it's worth bothering to correct you or not.

this is pretty much why no one knows my "real" name. it's 5 simple letters, but if spoken incorrectly, it sounds flat and lifeless. not liking the way people who are unfamiliar with the language the name originated from pronounced it, i ended up choosing something that was simple for people to say. i don't hold it against folks for not being to say my name, but it's been so long since i've heard it that it would be nice to hear it more than just every blue moon.

I can imagine, there must be a real sense of loss in having to do that solely to accommodate others, even when they can't realistically be expected to get it right.

 

[VintagePunk]

If I remember correctly from my language development classes, there's even a critical period during infancy or childhood, where, if one is not exposed to some sounds in some languages, they'll never "hear" them properly, or be able to differentiate between similar sounds in some non-native languages.

 

[bono_212]

Romanised? Well, they use what's called pinyin which takes the sound of Chinese characters and then use an approximation of what it sounds like using the English alphabet. This was implemented by the Chinese government many years ago, but use of Chinese characters still rule.

Fun fact: In Chinese Yao Ming's name is actually the reverse, but the media chose to write it this way for whatever reason.

That's what they call it in Japanese, anyways, Romanizing. Or at least that's what I was told in my Japanese classes.

This isn't exactly related to what the topic's about, but reading this reminded me of a guy we were training to own his own Quiznos last summer, or the year before, can't remember. He was Indian, and so are my bosses, and their parents (who also work there) and pretty much all of us have gotten used to pronouncing Indian names. Well, anyways, we were training this guy, and I can't remember what his real name was anymore, but he wanted us to call him Steve...and we're just like, "Why?". And he kept telling us his real name was too hard to pronounce, but it really wasn't, and anyways, the majority of the people who worked there spoke the same language as him. It was really kinda strange, and then I heard from other people that sometimes that just happens, that immigrants choose to change their names. Honestly, I wish they wouldn't. Why should they, you know? Don't let people like this idiot make them feel badly about their heritage.

 

[anitram]

I can imagine, there must be a real sense of loss in having to do that solely to accommodate others, even when they can't realistically be expected to get it right.

My Mom's name is Vesna (it's the Slavic goddess of spring because she was born on the first day of spring) and she told me that she's been asked at least 10 times why it is that she hasn't changed it to "Vanessa" so that "people" can spell and pronounce it right.

Her response is that they should feel free to ask her and learn how to pronounce it because she has no intention of going by a name that her mother didn't give her.

 

[Irvine511]

when i spent 3 weeks with a French family, they called me by my correct first name, only with the French pronunciation. this isn't my name, but i was "Me-Shell" instead of "Mike-Uhl" if my name were Michael (which it isn't).

this bothered me not at all. i kind of liked it.

 

[yolland]

If I remember correctly from my language development classes, there's even a critical period during infancy or childhood, where, if one is not exposed to some sounds in some languages, they'll never "hear" them properly, or be able to differentiate between similar sounds in some non-native languages.

Well, for what this is worth...

Wikipedia - Critical Period Hypothesis

...The theory has often been extended to a critical period for second language acquisition, although this is much less widely accepted. Certainly, older learners of a second language rarely achieve the native-like fluency that younger learners display, despite often progressing faster than children in the initial stages. David Singleton (1995) states that in learning a second language, "younger = better in the long run," but points out that there are many exceptions, noting that 5% of adult bilinguals master a second language even though they begin learning it when they are well into adulthood—long after any critical period has presumably come to a close.

While the window for learning a second language never completely closes, certain linguistic aspects appear to be more affected by the age of the learner than others. For example, adult second-language learners nearly always retain an immediately-identifiable foreign accent, including some who display perfect grammar (Oyama 1976). Some writers have suggested a younger critical age for learning phonology than for syntax.

I know I saw a good general-interest article on this topic a few years back, but unfortunately I can't recall where anymore. As much as I love linguistics trivia, I usually find academic articles on topics like this to be far more trouble than it's worth for me--I just don't know enough of the relevant terminology concerning phonology and so on to follow much of it.

My parents didn't start learning English until they were, I think, 13 and 14 respectively, and then not in the greatest environment (classrooms composed entirely of immigrants from all different language backgrounds, plus they lived in orphanages that were more of the same), which I suppose might make them non-representative. But at any rate, while they certainly both came to speak English very fluently, they did retain obvious accents and my father's grammar was never entirely perfect.

 

[vaz02]

I have a Chinese born girl in my class at uni. Her real name is Sze but she calls herself Jenny to stop people pulling faces.

 

[deep]

Sze

 

[vaz02]

I just call her Z for short

 

[Angela Harlem]

My Mom's name is Vesna (it's the Slavic goddess of spring because she was born on the first day of spring) and she told me that she's been asked at least 10 times why it is that she hasn't changed it to "Vanessa" so that "people" can spell and pronounce it right.

Her response is that they should feel free to ask her and learn how to pronounce it because she has no intention of going by a name that her mother didn't give her.

She meets people who cannot pronounce Vesna? Wow! It's hardly rare here, and it's a name that covers a few generations and ethnicities. I went to school with a girl called Vesna, and another friend had a baby soon after leaving school and she named her Vesna. The name is enduring here, though obviously it came over with immigrant Australians originally.

 

[maycocksean]

I have a student who is Filipina. She was raised speaking English but both her parents have accents, but her English is completely "accent-less." I can't figure out why this is. I could understand if she were surrounded by American kids with American accents at school her whole life, but she hasn't been. What makes a person have an accent?

 

[Vincent Vega]

Normally, an accent developes because you are starting learning your mother tongue. Then, when you start learning another language they do have other sounds which for some reason you are not as able to form since you are not trained in doing so. For example, one language comes more from within the body, another emphasizes the use of the tongue and another again needs the movement of the lips to create the sound. When you start learning a different language at a later stage your body, for some reason, doesn't really understand how to make the movements needed.

Hence, Germans e.g. are having trouble with the "th" sound in English while people with English as their mother tongue can't seem to figure out how to pronounce the German "ch" correctly (just ask Larry ).
If you start learning a language early on your body also learns how to use what its been given to use these sounds.

I have found that Americans, in general are very willing to learn how to pronounce one's name correctly, while the Australians, in general and in what I've experienced, were a little more lazy. Americans really listened and tried until they thought they did it correctly. Australians often gave it like three tries and when it didn't work they just said "I will call you like this". My name isn't that difficult, once you've gotten over the fact that Leif is pronounced like "life", and not like "leave", but my friend had a hard time with his name Helge. In German it is pronounced a little bit like "hell-gay", just with a short "ay". Most people said "Helg", so he answered "No, Helge". "Helg?" "No, Hel-gee". "May I just call you Helg?"
Happened several times. In other cases they got it by the third time, and five seconds later they called him Helg again.

You are getting used to it, or just don't want to bother with it anymore. I normally don't react anymore when someone goes ack to saying Leave.
What I didn't really understand was why everyone kept hearing "Knive" when I introduced myself.
Leif
Knive?
No, Lllleif. Like being alive, Leif.


Even when I started with Lllllleif I often would get "Knive?"

 

[deep]

I have a student who is Filipina. She was raised speaking English but both her parents have accents, but her English is completely "accent-less." I can't figure out why this is. I could understand if she were surrounded by American kids with American accents at school her whole life, but she hasn't been. What makes a person have an accent?

Some cultures have not evolved far enough to speak proper English.
Most times it takes a generation or two.
This girl must be exceptionally bright.

j/k​

 

[VintagePunk]

Well, for what this is worth...

Wikipedia - Critical Period Hypothesis

I know I saw a good general-interest article on this topic a few years back, but unfortunately I can't recall where anymore. As much as I love linguistics trivia, I usually find academic articles on topics like this to be far more trouble than it's worth for me--I just don't know enough of the relevant terminology concerning phonology and so on to follow much of it.

My parents didn't start learning English until they were, I think, 13 and 14 respectively, and then not in the greatest environment (classrooms composed entirely of immigrants from all different language backgrounds, plus they lived in orphanages that were more of the same), which I suppose might make them non-representative. But at any rate, while they certainly both came to speak English very fluently, they did retain obvious accents and my father's grammar was never entirely perfect.

Yes, that's it exactly. It has to do with phonetics, the auditory system and the brain's perception of certain sounds - for some sounds apparently, there's a very short window in which these sounds need to be heard, and if they're not, you've lost the ability to perceive them for life. That doesn't impact the ability to learn another language, however. It's still possible to learn at any age (although sometimes older learners have to be a bit more determined than those younger), they just won't be able to hear, and thus speak, certain sounds within a non-native language. We were given specific examples of the sounds and the languages at the time, but I can't recall what they were.

As far as a critical period for language period, that's been hotly debated. In the famous case of Genie, which was mentioned in the wiki article you linked to, she was never able to learn to develop full language skills. The same has been found with feral children. Given that there's a lack of feral children to study (lol), the key to unlocking the full process may never be found, and so we're left with only hypotheses.

We are a strictly English speaking family, but I decided to enroll my daughter in a French immersion program in elementary school, simply for the challenge, because she probably would have been at a grade 3 level in many subjects by the time she started kindergarten. In this program, all subjects are taught in French until 3rd grade. At this time, they slowly start adding subjects in English until they reach grade 8, and by that time, they're taking half of their subjects entirely in French, and the other half in English. For the first few years though, teachers were not to speak any English in the classroom at all (I later found out that this "rule" was broken sometimes, when they had to impart vital information, but it wasn't supposed to be). I was assured that despite throwing a kid into this type of situation, they adapt very easily and very well. It really was amazing how quickly she adapted and learned. The only issue she ever really had with the language is that she had been learning from mostly native English speakers who, when they spoke French, spoke more slowly and clearly than a native French speaker would, so when she was listening to a native French speaker talking in a more rapid, conversational way, she had to pay much closer attention.

 

[Liesje]

The Asian students here where I work often take an American first name. It actually makes matters MORE complicated, b/c often they will call and give their Chinese name (or vice versa), but the name in our system is the American one (or vice versa).

If you ask my mom about our genealogy she will go on and on about how so-and-so had the nerve to Americanize their name and how she will forever regret slightly Americanizing my sibs' names (of course not mine, which annoys me on almost a daily basis).

 

[Liesje]

Hence, Germans e.g. are having trouble with the "th" sound in English while people with English as their mother tongue can't seem to figure out how to pronounce the German "ch" correctly (just ask Larry ).
If you start learning a language early on your body also learns how to use what its been given to use these sounds.

OMG I can never for the life of me say the word "bisschen" correctly! I can't get the "ch" right after the ss. It sounds great in my head but what comes out...it's not even worth me using that word.

Around here we divide the Dutch by those who can say the "th" and those that can't.

 

[yolland]

What I didn't really understand was why everyone kept hearing "Knive" when I introduced myself.
Leif
Knive?
No, Lllleif. Like being alive, Leif.


Even when I started with Lllllleif I often would get "Knive?"

Was this in the US or Australia? If it was the US--and this is just a guess, but--I know one of the distinguishing features of American English (and maybe Aussie English too, I wouldn't know) is that most or all of our "l"s are the so-called "dark l" type, the one a British English speaker uses when saying "old" or "hell." It's a bit hard to describe this sound; the tip of the tongue is against the gumline just like with any other "l," including (I think!) German "l," but rather than the rest of the tongue being angled towards the front portion of the roof of the mouth, with "dark l" it's angled towards the rear portion of the roof of the mouth instead, which gives the "l" a kind of buzzy "euh" quality. So, if this guess is correct, then probably what was happening in your case was that people were hearing what to them sounded like a puzzlingly indistinct 'mystery consonant' when you said Leif, and based on other subtle cues (perhaps the way your lips were moving or something) guessed that it was an "N" sound (Nife/Knive).

 

[Vincent Vega]

^It's a tricky word. In some regions in Germany, where they speak dialect, they have "problems" with that word either.

The only issue she ever really had with the language is that she had been learning from mostly native English speakers who, when they spoke French, spoke more slowly and clearly than a native French speaker would, so when she was listening to a native French speaker talking in a more rapid, conversational way, she had to pay much closer attention.

I would say that's something most people who learn another language will experience. I've learned English and Danish in school, but of course the teachers spoke a little more slowly and with clear pronounciation. When you meet native speakers or watch movies in that language you might be a very good student in that language and still have trouble understanding that person. Almost no one speaks a "perfect" English (or Danish) and, especially in movies, you often have other noises, like background music, traffic noise etc., and you need to develop an understanding for that. This takes time and in the beginning you need to concentrate more when listening to a native speaker, but over time it gets easier.

 

[Liesje]

Leif, do you have the same problem as me in the US? No matter how often I explain it, people can't grasp the concept of in German and Dutch, when you see the ei or the ie, just pronounce the second one (I know that's an oversimplification, but since I get asked about my name on a daily basis, this is how I explain it). They want to call me lies like "eyes" and say my name should be spelled the other way around, maybe they call you leaf?

 

[Vincent Vega]

Was this in the US or Australia? If it was the US--and this is just a guess, but--I know one of the distinguishing features of American English (and maybe Aussie English too, I wouldn't know) is that most or all of our "l"s are the so-called "dark l" type, the one a British English speaker uses when saying "old" or "hell." It's a bit hard to describe this sound; the tip of the tongue is against the gumline just like with any other "l," including (I think!) German "l," but rather than the rest of the tongue being angled towards the front portion of the roof of the mouth, with "dark l" it's angled towards the rear portion of the roof of the mouth instead, which gives the "l" a kind of buzzy "euh" quality. So, if this guess is correct, then probably what was happening in your case was that people were hearing what to them sounded like a puzzlingly indistinct 'mystery consonant' when you said Leif, and based on other subtle cues (perhaps the way your lips were moving or something) guessed that it was an "N" sound (Nife/Knive).

That sounds very logical. And yes, we form the L sound the same way you describe.

 

[yolland]

They want to call me lies like "eyes" and say my name should be spelled the other way around, maybe they call you leaf?

Haven't these uncultured people ever seen The Sound of Music? It's LEEsl not LYEsl.

 

[Liesje]

Exactly! I should just add the "l" to my name. But then people would demand I spell it Leisel and not Liesl. When I'm at a restaurant or somewhere in public, I give the name Liz, since that's essentially what it is (Liesbeth/Elizabeth).

 

[Vincent Vega]

Leif, do you have the same problem as me in the US? No matter how often I explain it, people can't grasp the concept of in German and Dutch, when you see the ei or the ie, just pronounce the second one (I know that's an oversimplification, but since I get asked about my name on a daily basis, this is how I explain it). They want to call me lies like "eyes" and say my name should be spelled the other way around, maybe they call you leaf?

Yeah, that's exactly what happens. When they read my name, they tell me to leave. Or when they write it they spell it "Lief".

 

[joyfulgirl]

Almost every single one of our clients have an 'English' name that they use in the States rather than their Asian name. It's just funny because its always like Bob, or Bill, or some really plain American name that just doesnt 'go' with them.

I knew a 'Clement' and a 'Harry' once and they said they picked their names from a list of English names in a book.

 

[aptdot]

Guys, even as a pathetic lurker of long standing, I feel safe in assuring you that Irvine is being ironic and does not hold the opinions you appear to think.

As a lurker of long standing, I have learnt that irony is almost impossible to convey online, but a posting history helps. Of course an audience aware of said history also helps.

Ok, that's me done, gang!

UK Declared Dead For Third Time in A Week.

Okay, I feel really stupid now . LOL.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Was this in the US or Australia? If it was the US--and this is just a guess, but--I know one of the distinguishing features of American English (and maybe Aussie English too, I wouldn't know) is that most or all of our "l"s are the so-called "dark l" type, the one a British English speaker uses when saying "old" or "hell." It's a bit hard to describe this sound; the tip of the tongue is against the gumline just like with any other "l," including (I think!) German "l," but rather than the rest of the tongue being angled towards the front portion of the roof of the mouth, with "dark l" it's angled towards the rear portion of the roof of the mouth instead, which gives the "l" a kind of buzzy "euh" quality. So, if this guess is correct, then probably what was happening in your case was that people were hearing what to them sounded like a puzzlingly indistinct 'mystery consonant' when you said Leif, and based on other subtle cues (perhaps the way your lips were moving or something) guessed that it was an "N" sound (Nife/Knive).

d'oh! Totally forgot to mention, that happened in the US. I'm sorry.