Chinese people should change their names - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-14-2009, 08:52 AM   #46
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:40 AM
Normally, an accent developes because you are starting learning your mother tongue. Then, when you start learning another language they do have other sounds which for some reason you are not as able to form since you are not trained in doing so. For example, one language comes more from within the body, another emphasizes the use of the tongue and another again needs the movement of the lips to create the sound. When you start learning a different language at a later stage your body, for some reason, doesn't really understand how to make the movements needed.

Hence, Germans e.g. are having trouble with the "th" sound in English while people with English as their mother tongue can't seem to figure out how to pronounce the German "ch" correctly (just ask Larry ).
If you start learning a language early on your body also learns how to use what its been given to use these sounds.

I have found that Americans, in general are very willing to learn how to pronounce one's name correctly, while the Australians, in general and in what I've experienced, were a little more lazy. Americans really listened and tried until they thought they did it correctly. Australians often gave it like three tries and when it didn't work they just said "I will call you like this". My name isn't that difficult, once you've gotten over the fact that Leif is pronounced like "life", and not like "leave", but my friend had a hard time with his name Helge. In German it is pronounced a little bit like "hell-gay", just with a short "ay". Most people said "Helg", so he answered "No, Helge". "Helg?" "No, Hel-gee". "May I just call you Helg?"
Happened several times. In other cases they got it by the third time, and five seconds later they called him Helg again.

You are getting used to it, or just don't want to bother with it anymore. I normally don't react anymore when someone goes ack to saying Leave.
What I didn't really understand was why everyone kept hearing "Knive" when I introduced myself.
Leif
Knive?
No, Lllleif. Like being alive, Leif.


Even when I started with Lllllleif I often would get "Knive?"
__________________

__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 12:57 PM   #47
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
I have a student who is Filipina. She was raised speaking English but both her parents have accents, but her English is completely "accent-less." I can't figure out why this is. I could understand if she were surrounded by American kids with American accents at school her whole life, but she hasn't been. What makes a person have an accent?
Some cultures have not evolved far enough to speak proper English.
Most times it takes a generation or two.
This girl must be exceptionally bright.




j/k
__________________

__________________
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 04:38 PM   #48
Blue Crack Distributor
 
VintagePunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In a dry and waterless place
Posts: 55,732
Local Time: 12:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Well, for what this is worth...

Wikipedia - Critical Period Hypothesis

I know I saw a good general-interest article on this topic a few years back, but unfortunately I can't recall where anymore. As much as I love linguistics trivia, I usually find academic articles on topics like this to be far more trouble than it's worth for me--I just don't know enough of the relevant terminology concerning phonology and so on to follow much of it.

My parents didn't start learning English until they were, I think, 13 and 14 respectively, and then not in the greatest environment (classrooms composed entirely of immigrants from all different language backgrounds, plus they lived in orphanages that were more of the same), which I suppose might make them non-representative. But at any rate, while they certainly both came to speak English very fluently, they did retain obvious accents and my father's grammar was never entirely perfect.
Yes, that's it exactly. It has to do with phonetics, the auditory system and the brain's perception of certain sounds - for some sounds apparently, there's a very short window in which these sounds need to be heard, and if they're not, you've lost the ability to perceive them for life. That doesn't impact the ability to learn another language, however. It's still possible to learn at any age (although sometimes older learners have to be a bit more determined than those younger), they just won't be able to hear, and thus speak, certain sounds within a non-native language. We were given specific examples of the sounds and the languages at the time, but I can't recall what they were.

As far as a critical period for language period, that's been hotly debated. In the famous case of Genie, which was mentioned in the wiki article you linked to, she was never able to learn to develop full language skills. The same has been found with feral children. Given that there's a lack of feral children to study (lol), the key to unlocking the full process may never be found, and so we're left with only hypotheses.

We are a strictly English speaking family, but I decided to enroll my daughter in a French immersion program in elementary school, simply for the challenge, because she probably would have been at a grade 3 level in many subjects by the time she started kindergarten. In this program, all subjects are taught in French until 3rd grade. At this time, they slowly start adding subjects in English until they reach grade 8, and by that time, they're taking half of their subjects entirely in French, and the other half in English. For the first few years though, teachers were not to speak any English in the classroom at all (I later found out that this "rule" was broken sometimes, when they had to impart vital information, but it wasn't supposed to be). I was assured that despite throwing a kid into this type of situation, they adapt very easily and very well. It really was amazing how quickly she adapted and learned. The only issue she ever really had with the language is that she had been learning from mostly native English speakers who, when they spoke French, spoke more slowly and clearly than a native French speaker would, so when she was listening to a native French speaker talking in a more rapid, conversational way, she had to pay much closer attention.
__________________
VintagePunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 04:44 PM   #49
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 12:40 AM
The Asian students here where I work often take an American first name. It actually makes matters MORE complicated, b/c often they will call and give their Chinese name (or vice versa), but the name in our system is the American one (or vice versa).

If you ask my mom about our genealogy she will go on and on about how so-and-so had the nerve to Americanize their name and how she will forever regret slightly Americanizing my sibs' names (of course not mine, which annoys me on almost a daily basis).
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 04:48 PM   #50
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 12:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post

Hence, Germans e.g. are having trouble with the "th" sound in English while people with English as their mother tongue can't seem to figure out how to pronounce the German "ch" correctly (just ask Larry ).
If you start learning a language early on your body also learns how to use what its been given to use these sounds.
OMG I can never for the life of me say the word "bisschen" correctly! I can't get the "ch" right after the ss. It sounds great in my head but what comes out...it's not even worth me using that word.

Around here we divide the Dutch by those who can say the "th" and those that can't.
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 05:09 PM   #51
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
What I didn't really understand was why everyone kept hearing "Knive" when I introduced myself.
Leif
Knive?
No, Lllleif. Like being alive, Leif.


Even when I started with Lllllleif I often would get "Knive?"
Was this in the US or Australia? If it was the US--and this is just a guess, but--I know one of the distinguishing features of American English (and maybe Aussie English too, I wouldn't know) is that most or all of our "l"s are the so-called "dark l" type, the one a British English speaker uses when saying "old" or "hell." It's a bit hard to describe this sound; the tip of the tongue is against the gumline just like with any other "l," including (I think!) German "l," but rather than the rest of the tongue being angled towards the front portion of the roof of the mouth, with "dark l" it's angled towards the rear portion of the roof of the mouth instead, which gives the "l" a kind of buzzy "euh" quality. So, if this guess is correct, then probably what was happening in your case was that people were hearing what to them sounded like a puzzlingly indistinct 'mystery consonant' when you said Leif, and based on other subtle cues (perhaps the way your lips were moving or something) guessed that it was an "N" sound (Nife/Knive).
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 06:00 PM   #52
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:40 AM
^It's a tricky word. In some regions in Germany, where they speak dialect, they have "problems" with that word either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
The only issue she ever really had with the language is that she had been learning from mostly native English speakers who, when they spoke French, spoke more slowly and clearly than a native French speaker would, so when she was listening to a native French speaker talking in a more rapid, conversational way, she had to pay much closer attention.
I would say that's something most people who learn another language will experience. I've learned English and Danish in school, but of course the teachers spoke a little more slowly and with clear pronounciation. When you meet native speakers or watch movies in that language you might be a very good student in that language and still have trouble understanding that person. Almost no one speaks a "perfect" English (or Danish) and, especially in movies, you often have other noises, like background music, traffic noise etc., and you need to develop an understanding for that. This takes time and in the beginning you need to concentrate more when listening to a native speaker, but over time it gets easier.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 06:06 PM   #53
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 12:40 AM
Leif, do you have the same problem as me in the US? No matter how often I explain it, people can't grasp the concept of in German and Dutch, when you see the ei or the ie, just pronounce the second one (I know that's an oversimplification, but since I get asked about my name on a daily basis, this is how I explain it). They want to call me lies like "eyes" and say my name should be spelled the other way around, maybe they call you leaf?
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 06:18 PM   #54
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Was this in the US or Australia? If it was the US--and this is just a guess, but--I know one of the distinguishing features of American English (and maybe Aussie English too, I wouldn't know) is that most or all of our "l"s are the so-called "dark l" type, the one a British English speaker uses when saying "old" or "hell." It's a bit hard to describe this sound; the tip of the tongue is against the gumline just like with any other "l," including (I think!) German "l," but rather than the rest of the tongue being angled towards the front portion of the roof of the mouth, with "dark l" it's angled towards the rear portion of the roof of the mouth instead, which gives the "l" a kind of buzzy "euh" quality. So, if this guess is correct, then probably what was happening in your case was that people were hearing what to them sounded like a puzzlingly indistinct 'mystery consonant' when you said Leif, and based on other subtle cues (perhaps the way your lips were moving or something) guessed that it was an "N" sound (Nife/Knive).
That sounds very logical. And yes, we form the L sound the same way you describe.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 06:19 PM   #55
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
They want to call me lies like "eyes" and say my name should be spelled the other way around, maybe they call you leaf?
Haven't these uncultured people ever seen The Sound of Music? It's LEEsl not LYEsl.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 06:23 PM   #56
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 12:40 AM
Exactly! I should just add the "l" to my name. But then people would demand I spell it Leisel and not Liesl. When I'm at a restaurant or somewhere in public, I give the name Liz, since that's essentially what it is (Liesbeth/Elizabeth).
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 06:24 PM   #57
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Leif, do you have the same problem as me in the US? No matter how often I explain it, people can't grasp the concept of in German and Dutch, when you see the ei or the ie, just pronounce the second one (I know that's an oversimplification, but since I get asked about my name on a daily basis, this is how I explain it). They want to call me lies like "eyes" and say my name should be spelled the other way around, maybe they call you leaf?
Yeah, that's exactly what happens. When they read my name, they tell me to leave. Or when they write it they spell it "Lief".
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 06:54 PM   #58
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicy View Post
Almost every single one of our clients have an 'English' name that they use in the States rather than their Asian name. It's just funny because its always like Bob, or Bill, or some really plain American name that just doesnt 'go' with them.
I knew a 'Clement' and a 'Harry' once and they said they picked their names from a list of English names in a book.
__________________
joyfulgirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 10:54 PM   #59
The Fly
 
aptdot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 87
Local Time: 12:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post
Guys, even as a pathetic lurker of long standing, I feel safe in assuring you that Irvine is being ironic and does not hold the opinions you appear to think.

As a lurker of long standing, I have learnt that irony is almost impossible to convey online, but a posting history helps. Of course an audience aware of said history also helps.

Ok, that's me done, gang!

UK Declared Dead For Third Time in A Week.
Okay, I feel really stupid now . LOL.
__________________
aptdot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2009, 03:58 AM   #60
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Was this in the US or Australia? If it was the US--and this is just a guess, but--I know one of the distinguishing features of American English (and maybe Aussie English too, I wouldn't know) is that most or all of our "l"s are the so-called "dark l" type, the one a British English speaker uses when saying "old" or "hell." It's a bit hard to describe this sound; the tip of the tongue is against the gumline just like with any other "l," including (I think!) German "l," but rather than the rest of the tongue being angled towards the front portion of the roof of the mouth, with "dark l" it's angled towards the rear portion of the roof of the mouth instead, which gives the "l" a kind of buzzy "euh" quality. So, if this guess is correct, then probably what was happening in your case was that people were hearing what to them sounded like a puzzlingly indistinct 'mystery consonant' when you said Leif, and based on other subtle cues (perhaps the way your lips were moving or something) guessed that it was an "N" sound (Nife/Knive).
d'oh! Totally forgot to mention, that happened in the US. I'm sorry.
__________________

__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com