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Old 10-01-2017, 10:12 PM   #1
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Catalonia

Anyone have good commentary on the Catalan independence referendum today? I knew that there was a general prosperity for Catalonia to throw a Québec and have an independence referendum every couple of decades, but what's happening today seems unbelievable in a modern, first-world democracy. Both the regional government's general complete willingness to ignore Madrid and the Federal Police's seemingly brutal crackdown today are stunning. And now we're looking at an actual Declaration of Independence being pushed through this week, as Rajoy's government is barely hanging on in Madrid.

Is there a real threat of significant violence here?

For those unfamiliar: Catalan referendum: Catalonia has 'won right to statehood' - BBC News
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:24 PM   #2
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I spent much of yesterday evening following the events. Rajoy is egging on a civil war here with the aggression the Guardia Civil have been showing towards the Catalonian people - to the point that even the Catalan police force have been in conflict with them, instead choosing to protect the voters in numerous cases.

In isolation it seems like such an unbelievable event, but taking into account the historical context of Spain (including the marginalisation of the Catalan people), it doesn't really seem that fascism has ever been overthrown in any meaningful sense. In this case the level of state violence is hardly predictable.

There's intended to be a widespread general strike in Catalonia tomorrow. Things will only continue to escalate and it's pretty clear that Rajoy is finished.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:23 AM   #3
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Spain might view the referendum as illegal, but responding with violence against peaceful civilians seeking to express their opinion at the ballot box immediately robs the Spanish authorities of legitimacy.

Good luck Catalonia, I say.
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:16 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Axver View Post
Spain might view the referendum as illegal, but responding with violence against peaceful civilians seeking to express their opinion at the ballot box immediately robs the Spanish authorities of legitimacy.

Good luck Catalonia, I say.
Yeah, that is also my view. The referendum was illegal (but then again, when is a vote for separation legal?) and the Spanish government could've just ignored the results (especially since most of those against independence were boycotting the referendum so the results were skewed anyway). But the response by the Spanish authorities is out of proportion and will likely have the opposite effect. Showcase of how not to react.
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:37 PM   #5
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Will gigs in Barca retroactively count as Catalonia. Or do they start fresh next tour?
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:22 AM   #6
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Will gigs in Barca retroactively count as Catalonia. Or do they start fresh next tour?
The fuck?
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Old 10-28-2017, 02:41 PM   #7
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The fuck?
For U2 tour statistics. I don't have a dog in the fight either way. Similar to Quebec vote in the 90s. Different language.
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Old 10-28-2017, 08:15 PM   #8
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There's a potential civil war brewing in a major European nation and your concern is with U2 tour statistics?
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Old 10-28-2017, 08:32 PM   #9
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If anybody was likely to have given this thought, it's me. And of course I haven't. Far bigger things to worry about here than what I'm plugging into the country field in the U2gigs database.

Nationalism has its problems, but people have a right to self-determination and the approach of the Spanish authorities has been so distasteful that my support for the Catalonians increases with every heavy-handed decision or pronouncement from Madrid. Even if the opposition parties hadn't walked out of the Catalonian parliament the vote for independence would have passed, and if you believe in representative democracy you've got to give that some credit. Like Marty said, Spain's behaviour is a showcase of how not to react. I'm honestly disappointed in the response of international actors in backing Madrid with very limited censure of its tactics.
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Old 10-29-2017, 08:36 AM   #10
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U2 will have to repeat every single show in Barcelona, else they must be regarded as nonexistent and you've never heard Spanish Eyes in Barcelona.

It is indeed the right of the Catalans to hold a referendum, based on international law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
The Spanish government doesn't have to like it, and they don't need to put their support behind it. But the brutal handling was unacceptable and from a PR standpoint it was catastrophical. But I guess it was also a reaction with an eye towards the aspirations of the Basques, sending out the signal, "Don't even try."
A smarter way would have to strengthen the large parts of the Catalans who apparently want a renegotiation of the terms of autonomy, but are not so eager to acquire full independence. The mayor of Barcelona, Ada Colau Ballana wrote a great statement hinting at that:

Quote:
After talking about a train crash in the conditional or future tense for so long, it's difficult to take on the fact that today it has happened.
A decade of PP carelessness with Catalonia has culminated with the adoption of article 155 by the Senate today.
Rajoy presented the motion to the applause of his party and to the shame of all of us who respect dignity and democracy.
Were they applauding his failure?
Those who have been incapable of proposing a single solution, incapable of listening or of governing for all, have enacted a coup against democracy today with the annihilation of Catalan self-government.
On the same track, in the other direction, the pro-independence parties are in their, smaller train with no breaks, advancing at a kamikazi pace (“now is the moment”, we're in a hurry”), after their mistaken reading of the results of the Catalan elections. Their speed has been the result of partisan interests, a headlong dash which has been consumated today with a Declaration of Independence in the name of Catalonia that doesn't have the support of a majority of Catalans.
We won't tire of repeating it: it's a mistake to rennounce the 80% in favour of a negotiated referendum for the 48% in favour of independence.
Many of us have been warning of this danger for years and, over recent weeks, working in public and in private to avoid this collision. We're a majority, in Catalonia and in Spain, who want a halt to the trains and for dialogue, common sense and an agreed solution to take hold.
There's always time to turn to dialogue. Whatever happens, we won't cease to demand it. But now our task is to defend Catalan institutions and to fight to maintain the social cohesion and prosperity of Barcelona and Catalonia. We'll be with the people, struggling to make sure that their rights are not violated. Healing the wounds that all of this has caused and calling on people in the rest of the country to fight with us, because the democracy that is at risk today is theirs too. We will also continue to call on the Socialist Party to stop supporting those who have applauded Rajoy today, otherwise it will be impossible for them to be part of any credible or inspiring alternative.
I know where I'll be: involved in the construction of new forms of self-government that give us more democracy, not less. That includes working to kick out the PP which, with its cruel applause today, has celebrated the pain of a people. But also, above all, I'll be working to feminize politics so that empathy becomes an everyday practice that allows us to build broad consensuses through which diversity can become our greatest treasure.
Nor Article 155 nor Unilateral Declaration of Independence: not in my name.
https://www.facebook.com/ada.colau/p...13997118680948
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Old 10-29-2017, 11:07 AM   #11
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There's a potential civil war brewing in a major European nation and your concern is with U2 tour statistics?
Can't see a civil war happening if the Catalan citizens don't have any firepower. There would have to a schism in the military/security forces. If Madrid were to overreach in riot control that could happen.
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Old 10-30-2017, 03:56 PM   #12
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Haha, so we (Belgium) may be granting political asylum to the Catalan government. Our Flemish separatist party (that is leading the federal government believe it or not) would probably love this.
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Old 10-30-2017, 08:23 PM   #13
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Unexpected act of internationalist solidarity.

I think that's fine though, would rather see Rajoy continue to squirm.
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Old 10-30-2017, 08:40 PM   #14
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Flemish separatist party
stupid sexy flanders
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