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Old 10-05-2009, 07:54 PM   #76
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Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying the 2 are mutually exclusive? ie, in your eyes, God only helps people that are worthy to be helped becuase they have heard the "Good News"?
No, I mentioned the Salvation Army as a group that does both. A Christian is to live as Christ which compels that we love our neighbor, be compassionate, feed the hungry, clothe the poor and help the sick.

This personal charity is an entirely different thing than the government arbitrarily deciding who has too much and who has too little and going about trying to make things "fair." As an American and as a head of household I can be concerned about the lopsided distribution of wealth in our society, but not as a Christian. I can evaluate things and see what I might do to change my lot in life, but I can't be envious, jealous or covet the belongings of others.

We can differ about the role of government but it's risky to selectively take passages out of the Bible to defend one's position, which Michael Moore does, is my main point. Especially when they are not consistent in that regard.
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:56 PM   #77
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(Self-) Defense is revenge? An attack is quite a bit more than a simple insult. Revenge would be mindlessly going after those attackers and brutally killing them simply for what they have done, instead of trying to defend your family/country and answering with as much as required and as little as possible.

It's saving your own life or that of loved ones. Or, if you are appointed leader of a state, your fellow citizens. Following your belief, if someone were behind me and my family I would just be sitting there waiting until it's my turn. And if I were trying to take action I would take revenge.
This way we will be seeing Srebrenica and Rwanda ever again.

I honestly don't mind if I never "get that concept".

self-defense
Main Entry: self–de·fense
Pronunciation: \ˌself-di-ˈfen(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 1651

1 : a plea of justification for the use of force or for homicide
2 : the act of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative

Just focussing on the personal level, but one could extrapolate from there.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:00 PM   #78
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We can differ about the role of government but it's risky to selectively take passages out of the Bible to defend one's position, which Michael Moore does, is my main point. Especially when they are not consistent in that regard.
He would be better served not to take up this tactic conveniently used by the Christian Conservatives for years trying to prove their point. And they might have a greater chance in a discussion if they refrained from doing so.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:06 PM   #79
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This personal charity is an entirely different thing than the government arbitrarily deciding who has too much and who has too little and going about trying to make things "fair."


do you think you are the best judge of how resources should be used, and who is the neediest, and that you have the best solutions to the mind-bogglingly complex problems we face? could a christian charity have responded effectively to the 2004 tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, or the Australian wildfires?
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:20 PM   #80
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The micro is the macro. What's in your living room, your home and in your heart is reflected in the world physically. That's a pretty big concept but I don't expect you to get that. It's takes years for some, and never for others.

And yes, I don't think we should strike back ever regardless of the size of the attack. That's my belief. I honor those who died by not promoting further destruction of innocent life.
Well, it's quite obvious that I will never agree with an idealist, and as you're comfortable in your own skin, and I in mine, we'll just leave it at that.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:50 PM   #81
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i tell this to the homeless people i meet in DC in December every year. i'm like, "sure you're freezing and sleeping on a subway grate, but i'm sure you're rich in the holy spirit! elevation!"


the elevation tagline got me! good one.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:59 PM   #82
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Moore wants to, according to his propaganda, "replace capitalism with pure democracy?"

Sounds like what got Hitler elected.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:33 PM   #83
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Moore wants to, according to his propaganda, "replace capitalism with pure democracy?"

Sounds like what got Hitler elected.
His point is our government is not a true Democracy now.
The corporations own Congress lock, stock and barrel. Our elected officials are not doing what we sent them there to do, to represent us! They are voting based on the almighty corporation's bottom line.
Save for a handful of upstanding representatives who do not take money from special interests groups like Bernie Sanders, the rest of them are being bribed. You should see who is on the list of campaign contributions of our elected representatives. Yes even people I voted for and admire.
Democrats and Republicans both are taking money from
these groups and making laws according to their best interests, not the American people.
I have said before and I will say it again...the real issue of ALL issues is campaign finance reform. Nothing will change until the system is purged and the corruption is gone.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:35 PM   #84
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Well, it's quite obvious that I will never agree with an idealist, and as you're comfortable in your own skin, and I in mine, we'll just leave it at that.
Ok, we agree! See, wasn't that easy?
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:40 PM   #85
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No, I mentioned the Salvation Army as a group that does both. A Christian is to live as Christ which compels that we love our neighbor, be compassionate, feed the hungry, clothe the poor and help the sick.

This personal charity is an entirely different thing than the government arbitrarily deciding who has too much and who has too little and going about trying to make things "fair." As an American and as a head of household I can be concerned about the lopsided distribution of wealth in our society, but not as a Christian. I can evaluate things and see what I might do to change my lot in life, but I can't be envious, jealous or covet the belongings of others.

We can differ about the role of government but it's risky to selectively take passages out of the Bible to defend one's position, which Michael Moore does, is my main point. Especially when they are not consistent in that regard.
You know, conservative Christians are always going on about making government more in tune with God. You'd think helping the poor would be one of those prime examples. Just pointing out that every side takes passages out of the Bible to defend one's position. Why is it okay to put God on our money and then deny it to those who truly need it?

But, you know, continue defending insurance companies and CEO's and, heaven forbid, the guy who drives an Escalade and lives in a 2 million dollar home. He needs all the cents he can get.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:43 PM   #86
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This personal charity is an entirely different thing than the government arbitrarily deciding who has too much and who has too little and going about trying to make things "fair." As an American and as a head of household I can be concerned about the lopsided distribution of wealth in our society, but not as a Christian. .
Really? Wow. As a Christian I not only think it's my concern but a calling to serve those who have less than others, or for that matter less than me.

You say the word government like it's evil. It is not.
I think FDR was one if not the greatest President this country has ever had. He had vision and compassion to instill (without saying it) Christian values to help heal the sick and feed the hungry.
I think the programs he started which are still in tact today, were very Christ-like.

I think what you don't like is paying taxes to help others because it effects your bottom line.
Do you equate your money with your self worth?
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:53 PM   #87
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(Self-) Defense is revenge? An attack is quite a bit more than a simple insult. Revenge would be mindlessly going after those attackers and brutally killing them simply for what they have done, instead of trying to defend your family/country and answering with as much as required and as little as possible.

It's saving your own life or that of loved ones. Or, if you are appointed leader of a state, your fellow citizens. Following your belief, if someone were behind me and my family I would just be sitting there waiting until it's my turn. And if I were trying to take action I would take revenge.
This way we will be seeing Srebrenica and Rwanda ever again.

I honestly don't mind if I never "get that concept".
Did I say an attack was a simple insult? That's not what I meant if it was implied.
Self defense to me is flinching and blocking someone from hitting me in the moment, a reflex. Yes, there is nothing wrong with the reflex of defending yourself, your life and your family.

Where I am coming from is the WAR is the answer to everything mantra. I understand the rage and the need to lash out, I have been there, but in doing so ( on a large scale such as a planned invasion of a country, large scale bombing which inadvertanly kills more innocent people) this planed retaliation does nothing more than perpertuate the violence and you play right in to the provokers hand. They want you to react, they want you to hit them back so they can justify hitting you...and it never ENDS!
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:31 PM   #88
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Ok, we agree! See, wasn't that easy?
Well, we agreed to disagree. Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but just to make it clear, we did not agree, and I will never agree with your position. Rather that engage in a circular debate with no chance of either of us changing positions, I politely ended it.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:40 PM   #89
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Really? Wow. As a Christian I not only think it's my concern but a calling to serve those who have less than others, or for that matter less than me.
Stop that ! Did you not read the paragraph directly preceding that?
Quote:
A Christian is to live as Christ which compels that we love our neighbor, be compassionate, feed the hungry, clothe the poor and help the sick.
However, good for you. It's highly rewarding isn't it? However, one goal should be that perhaps those you help today will be able to help someone else another day. Government programs tend to make dependents of otherwise able bodied people which some of us find sad.
Quote:
You say the word government like it's evil. It is not.
I think FDR was one if not the greatest President this country has ever had. He had vision and compassion to instill (without saying it) Christian values to help heal the sick and feed the hungry.
Ok, but the Founding Fathers had some other things to say about the size and scope of government.
Quote:
I think the programs he started which are still in tact today, were very Christ-like.
Of course he didn't exactly "turn the other cheek" after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor did he?
Quote:
I think what you don't like is paying taxes to help others because it effects your bottom line.
Ahhh, so now who's assuming around here?
Quote:
Do you equate your money with your self worth?
How could you even think that after my George Bailey example?
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Old 10-06-2009, 02:19 AM   #90
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We can differ about the role of government but it's risky to selectively take passages out of the Bible to defend one's position, which Michael Moore does, is my main point. Especially when they are not consistent in that regard.
It seems that all you're really saying here is that you dislike religion-based advocacy of particular policies when you happen not to personally support those policies. If it's okay for Christians who consider the criminalization of abortion a religious imperative to advocate (and vote) for that policy on those grounds, then it's okay for Christians who consider economic policies meant to improve the lot of the poor equally imperative to do likewise. And in neither case are these individuals going to be directly, personally responsible for addressing the resulting resource demands. You could certainly argue that Bible verses are emphatically not appropriate as arguments for this or that legislation on the floor of Congress; but trying to prevent individuals, including public figures, from advocating for and voting their religious values in the public sphere more generally is a lost cause, for better and for worse.

Also, a quibble about your conflating Matthew 5:3--since you singled out Moore's use of that--with 'Great Commission' theology: having looked up the Greek for that passage (hoi ptochoi toi pneumati), you're correct that it clearly doesn't refer to material impoverishment; the Greek literally conveys "those who are as beggars in the realm of the spirit," with 'spirit' tellingly being in the dative case, hence an indirect object. However, the passage is commending those who are 'spiritually poor' in this sense; it's saying, to live at every moment with a humble awareness of your total dependence on God for your spiritual welfare--as opposed to arrogantly assuming yourself 'right with God' by virtue of having dutifully 'achieved' all the superficial markers of righteous living--is in fact to be precisely the sort of person 'the kingdom of Heaven' was meant for. That's not a comment on 'Great Commission' theology more generally, I'd leave it to Christians to hash that out, but there's really no legitimate way to interpret this passage to mean that 'the poor in spirit' are in need of ministering from the not-so-poor-in-spirit; quite the contrary. Matthew 5:3 would appear to mean neither what Michael Moore seems to want it to mean, nor what you seem to want it to mean.
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