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Old 10-05-2009, 04:24 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Jeannieco View Post
If I am reading this right (not sarcastically) George Bailey was rich because he had friends. Not because of money.
They came to his aid in his hour of need.

"Remember, no man is a failure who has friends."
That's right. In addition he was rich because his prayers were answered and God fulfilled His promise to provide George with what he truly needed as opposed to what George Bailey wanted or thought he needed before.

While God may certainly use individuals to provide material needs and comforts to others, the Great Commission is to spread The Good News to others. Or in other words, enrich their spirits.

Church missions and the Salvation Army do a wonderful job of combining the two. Government must seperate them.
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:26 PM   #62
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You live in a fantasy world, sorry.
Have to agree with that. Being a pacifist is nice, but at some point that is simply not workable anymore.
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Old 10-05-2009, 05:46 PM   #63
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Have to agree with that. Being a pacifist is nice, but at some point that is simply not workable anymore.
That's cool, your opinion, I respect that.

But in my opinion, I am not living in a fantasy world. I am an idealist? Sure.
Just remember that whatever you focus on expands. That can be good and that can be bad.

How else do you expect peace to happen? Why just perpetuate violence? It goes nowhere.
As for "revenge" that's up to God not me.

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Violence begets violence.
And that takes on many forms..... be it verbal or be it physical or be it spiritual.



Lay down
Lay down your guns
All your daughters of Zion
All your Abraham sons

I don't know if I can make it
I'm not easy on my knees
Here's my heart and you can break it
I need some release, release, release

We need
Love and peace
Love and peace
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Old 10-05-2009, 05:52 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Conveniently leaving off "in spirit" as well (referred to directly in Matthew and assumed in Luke) and giving them the totally wrong reward to boot. Earth and today rather than heaven and eternity.

Think what you may about capitalism, Wall St and the rich & the poor, just don't edit or take out of context biblical quotes to backup your beliefs to Christians is all I would ask.
Sorry, I apologize. But your interpretation is not what I believe, so please respect that. And GASP, yes, a liberal can be a Christian. Jesus was one afterall.


And how do you know I am not a Christian? You presume much don't you?
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:15 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Jeannieco View Post
That's cool, your opinion, I respect that.

But in my opinion, I am not living in a fantasy world. I am an idealist? Sure.
Just remember that whatever you focus on expands. That can be good and that can be bad.

How else do you expect peace to happen? Why just perpetuate violence? It goes nowhere.
As for "revenge" that's up to God not me.

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Violence begets violence.
And that takes on many forms..... be it verbal or be it physical or be it spiritual.



Lay down
Lay down your guns
All your daughters of Zion
All your Abraham sons

I don't know if I can make it
I'm not easy on my knees
Here's my heart and you can break it
I need some release, release, release

We need
Love and peace
Love and peace
Answering an attack doesn't equal revenge. Well, on that issue, I don't believe in God, so I wouldn't leave revenge up to a being I don't believe in. On the other hand, that would imply I were going to take revenge. I don't think I would.

Peace will neither happen when you let a force that is not unto peace prevail. Just take historical examples. The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. The officer's of July 20, 1944. All the other thousands of resistance fighters throughout Europe. And in the end all the countries that answered to the attacks of Germany, Italy and Japan. It would have been foolish for all those groups not to act, or to go and recite the bible hoping that would change anything. And in that line, the US's response to September 11, by going after those who did it at the place where they gathered, conspired and trained. You think al Quaeda would suddenly found peace if the US didn't answer?
There is limits to any ideology. And I'm no person for any extremes. Sometimes a situation demands to go after your personal beliefs and values.

Neither a bible quote nor a U2 quote are a great authority for me, there. I love their music to death, but I'm not adjusting my life after their lyrics. Hardly so, to most songs I don't even know the lyrics and have never bothered to look them up.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:16 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Jeannieco View Post
That's cool, your opinion, I respect that.

But in my opinion, I am not living in a fantasy world. I am an idealist? Sure.
Just remember that whatever you focus on expands. That can be good and that can be bad.

How else do you expect peace to happen? Why just perpetuate violence? It goes nowhere.
As for "revenge" that's up to God not me.

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Violence begets violence.
And that takes on many forms..... be it verbal or be it physical or be it spiritual.
I see your point, but idealism is not practical in the real world, at least in my opinion.

If you want to practise turning the other cheek on a personal level, that's quite an honourable way to live your life. And I commend you for it.

But as Vincent said, sometimes pacifism is not a realistic goal, especially when there are millions of lives at stake.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:17 PM   #67
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While God may certainly use individuals to provide material needs and comforts to others, the Great Commission is to spread The Good News to others. Or in other words, enrich their spirits.
Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying the 2 are mutually exclusive? ie, in your eyes, God only helps people that are worthy to be helped becuase they have heard the "Good News"?
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:21 PM   #68
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And how do you know I am not a Christian? You presume much don't you?
It's a very common assumption made by christian conservatives in these parts...
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:24 PM   #69
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It's a very common assumption made by christian conservatives in these parts...
Yes, assuming is never good.
You never know whom you are speaking to!
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:28 PM   #70
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But as Vincent said, sometimes pacifism is not a realistic goal, especially when there are millions of lives at stake.
Really? Ghandi and MLKjr lived in the real world and it worked for them.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:30 PM   #71
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exactly WHAT DOES "poor in Spirit" is supposed to mean, anyway?


I would of thought that being "rich in Spirit " ....

ie some one who abundantly practices the richness of Jesus's spirituality--
"cloth the naked/ feed the poor/ heal the sick etc" would (most likely) be
the kind of person who'd easily getting into Heaven? (Oh yes and believing in Christ-
tho i disagree with that. )
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:34 PM   #72
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Really? Ghandi and MLKjr lived in the real world and it worked for them.
Note that I said "sometimes" and not "all the time". There is a difference, you know. And you are talking about people who used pacifist means to achieve goals that are different from the point I'm trying to make.

Tell me, if you are attacked on the scale of Sept. 11, what do you do? Just take it?
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:37 PM   #73
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Really? Ghandi and MLKjr lived in the real world and it worked for them.
There was this word included, sometimes. Yes, they are examples where pacifism proved more successful. In general I, and I guess BoMac as well, agree that the peaceful way is the better, and has a greater chance of achieving its goal. Or at least a good compromise.
Still, there is no black and white. In a totalitarian regime, like under the Nazis or certain other ones, neither Ghandi nor MLK would've gotten far.
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:38 PM   #74
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Note that I said "sometimes" and not "all the time". There is a difference, you know. And you are talking about people who used pacifist means to achieve goals that are different from the point I'm trying to make.

Tell me, if you are attacked on the scale of Sept. 11, what do you do? Just take it?
The micro is the macro. What's in your living room, your home and in your heart is reflected in the world physically. That's a pretty big concept but I don't expect you to get that. It's takes years for some, and never for others.

And yes, I don't think we should strike back ever regardless of the size of the attack. That's my belief. I honor those who died by not promoting further destruction of innocent life.
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:41 PM   #75
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Answering an attack doesn't equal revenge.
Yes it does.

Websters:
Main Entry: re·venge
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈvenj\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re·venged; re·veng·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French revenger, revengier, from re- + venger to avenge — more at vengeance
Date: 14th century
1 : to avenge (as oneself) usually by retaliating in kind or degree
2 : to inflict injury in return for <revenge an insult
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