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Old 10-05-2009, 12:18 PM   #46
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and assumed in Luke
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just don't edit or take out of context biblical quotes to backup your beliefs to Christians is all I would ask.
So it's ok to assume, just not edit? That's rich(pun intended).

You never cease to ammuse me.

How many times are "the poor" mentioned in the New Testament? Are we to assume, none of the mentions have to do with money or belongings? So the "sell your jewelery" thing is just an analogy?
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:41 PM   #47
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The Bible contains more than 300 verses that refer to the poor and social justice in some way. That would be the type of poverty that I've been taught as a Christian, from the time I was a kid, that we should really be concerned about.
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:46 PM   #48
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So it's ok to assume, just not edit? That's rich(pun intended).
What do you think the purpose of the Beatitudes are?

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How many times are "the poor" mentioned in the New Testament? Are we to assume, none of the mentions have to do with money or belongings? So the "sell your jewelery" thing is just an analogy?
Didn't say that did I?
What I am saying is you can't take the micro morality of most of Jesus' teaching about interpersonal relationships and extrapolate from those the macro morality of how a nation or economy should function.

Would you argue that our national defense policy should be to simply "turn the other cheek" if attacked?
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:50 PM   #49
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What I am saying is you can't take the micro morality of most of Jesus' teaching about interpersonal relationships and extrapolate from those the macro morality of how a nation or economy should function.


indeed.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:04 PM   #50
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Maybe you can only take it selectively

I haven't seen the movie yet because I saw the Toy Story 3D double feature instead but I hope to see it this week.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:12 PM   #51
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So what should we do with the poor, Indy? Not the country, not the government, just the five of us reading this thread right now.

I do believe that being poor and being poor in spirit go hand in hand, so there's a nice kickstart to your response.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:14 PM   #52
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What do you think the purpose of the Beatitudes are?
I just attended a sermon on this, it's interesting to me that no matter how common the text is, the "purpose" seems to be not so easily agreed upon by all Christians.

I did like this little description though:

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The blessings in Luke refer to external situations while those in Matthew refer more to spiritual or moral qualities. Biblical scholar and author Andrej Kodjak has stated that this opening of the sermon was designed to shock the audience as a deliberate inversion of standard values, but this shock value has been lost today due to the commonness of the text.
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Didn't say that did I?
What I am saying is you can't take the micro morality of most of Jesus' teaching about interpersonal relationships and extrapolate from those the macro morality of how a nation or economy should function.
Well I agree to a certain extent, but I didn't agree with your overall definition of "poor".


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Would you argue that our national defense policy should be to simply "turn the other cheek" if attacked?
And I think this is why Jesus didn't speak much about government and it's a great argument for separation of Church and State.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:58 PM   #53
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Would you argue that our national defense policy should be to simply "turn the other cheek" if attacked?
Why, yes, yes I would! But I don't expect you to ever get that, and that's just fine. It's idology, and you are never going to see eye to eye with me, so whatever man.
But here's the quote exactly as it is in KJ:
I don't see how you can how else to interpret this verse but maybe you can enlighten me?


King James Bible:
MATTHEW 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:35 PM   #54
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So what should we do with the poor, Indy? Not the country, not the government, just the five of us reading this thread right now.
First you would have to define "poor" as the poor in this country would not be seen as such in much of the world today or even here say 60 years ago. Now would the world be better off if everyone practiced a form of compassion and charity towards those less fortunate than them? Sure, but on a personal level, it's the whole third-party arbiter thing of Robin Hood or the redistributive economics of Michael Moore I have a problem with. They don't grow the pie (or loaves of bread if you will) in a way to truly feed the hungry.

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I do believe that being poor and being poor in spirit go hand in hand, so there's a nice kickstart to your response.
Someone needs to watch It's A Wonderful Life again. What is it that makes George Bailey the "richest man in town." Money? And doesn't Mr Potter prove that the rich often suffer from a poverty of the soul.
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:45 PM   #55
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Someone needs to watch It's A Wonderful Life again. What is it that makes George Bailey the "richest man in town." Money? And doesn't Mr Potter prove that the rich often suffer from a poverty of the soul.


i tell this to the homeless people i meet in DC in December every year. i'm like, "sure you're freezing and sleeping on a subway grate, but i'm sure you're rich in the holy spirit! elevation!"
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:55 PM   #56
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it's the whole third-party arbiter thing of Robin Hood or the redistributive economics of Michael Moore I have a problem with. They don't grow the pie (or loaves of bread if you will) in a way to truly feed the hungry..
You need to watch the movie. Seriously. You may be surprised. He features a co-op factory that runs very efficiently, makes great stuff, has happy employees who care about what they make and do because they are the owners and yes they make a profit. What's wrong with that? They vote equally on issues and all have an equal say in what happens to them.

[/QUOTE]Someone needs to watch It's A Wonderful Life again. What is it that makes George Bailey the "richest man in town." Money? And doesn't Mr Potter prove that the rich often suffer from a poverty of the soul.[/QUOTE]

If I am reading this right (not sarcastically) George Bailey was rich because he had friends. Not because of money.
They came to his aid in his hour of need.

"Remember, no man is a failure who has friends."
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:55 PM   #57
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First you would have to define "poor" as the poor in this country would not be seen as such in much of the world today or even here say 60 years ago. Now would the world be better off if everyone practiced a form of compassion and charity towards those less fortunate than them? Sure, but on a personal level, it's the whole third-party arbiter thing of Robin Hood or the redistributive economics of Michael Moore I have a problem with. They don't grow the pie (or loaves of bread if you will) in a way to truly feed the hungry.
Why should I have to define the word poor for you? You should know what classifies someone as a poor person and not have to rely on degrees of poverty. The standard of living here in the US is radically different from that of those in Guatemala. They can be kept alive on "cents" as those wonderful Christian charities on TV would have us believe. The same amount does not go so far in the United States. So is the poor American kid just being a whiner?
Thing about the personal level on contribution is that it's just not there. If it were, we wouldn't have homeless people in this country. I mean, if all those radical Christians who believe George Bush was handpicked by Jesus would just contribute as much with their time and/or pocketbooks to impoverished Americans, we wouldn't have this problem. It's been tried, and it's obviously not working. I'm not a Michael Moore supporter, nor am I an ardent friend of welfare, but I can see the difference between just handing out money and hoping poor people will know what to do with it, and having government programs to help the homeless and the poor get rehabilitated and back to work in the grand capitalist scheme.
Lewis Black had a brilliant idea: Get the government to build some inane structure in the middle of nowhere. Make it huge and flashy and a big fat tourist trap. Hire the unemployed and homeless to do it. The government wastes so much money anyway, why not let them waste it on the right people? I'd say being employed would help the poor as well as the poor in spirit.

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Someone needs to watch It's A Wonderful Life again. What is it that makes George Bailey the "richest man in town." Money? And doesn't Mr Potter prove that the rich often suffer from a poverty of the soul.
And now you're asking us to take lessons from Hollywood??
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:00 PM   #58
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i tell this to the homeless people i meet in DC in December every year. i'm like, "sure you're freezing and sleeping on a subway grate, but i'm sure you're rich in the holy spirit! elevation!"
A mole! ... oops!
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:05 PM   #59
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Why, yes, yes I would! But I don't expect you to ever get that, and that's just fine. It's idology, and you are never going to see eye to eye with me, so whatever man.
But here's the quote exactly as it is in KJ:
I don't see how you can how else to interpret this verse but maybe you can enlighten me?


King James Bible:
MATTHEW 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

All I can tell you is I believe that command (along with the turn the other cheek passage) is directed at personal behaviors and attitudes we should all hold when dealing with others.
Jesus was concerned with the salvation of individuals and peace between individuals. While we may not murder can we not kill in self-defense? And are there no examples of righteous wars in the Bible?
Wars are simply one of many evils in the world and as they are still mentioned in Revelations I don't feel they will be going away any time soon. In fact, will not God Himself fight the final war against evil one day?
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:19 PM   #60
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Why, yes, yes I would! But I don't expect you to ever get that, and that's just fine. It's ideology, and you are never going to see eye to eye with me, so whatever man.
You live in a fantasy world, sorry.
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