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Old 12-03-2008, 07:21 PM   #121
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Because Alberta has always been in the midst of this economic boom, and has never taken a thing from the federal government, right?

You guys are so altruistic. Thanks!
Well if we follow the logic of Anitram the oil industry should be plundered. Is that altruistic? Why pay more provincial transfers when the oil industry is consumed under this plan. We pay PLENTY already.

Now you know why Westerners look at the East as envious. We are not just fields and streams like Trudeau said.
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:34 PM   #122
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Then it makes less sense to root for the left if you don't benefit from it. The poor will always be asking for more money from programs because much of the money goes to bureaucrats. If the money was "enough" nobody would work.
That is because you think that I vote on my own financial self interest exclusively and that this is apparently how we all should vote. I couldn't disagree more.

I came to this country as a refugee. I had nothing but my family and the clothes on my back. I benefited greatly from the generosity of the Canadian people and the social safety net they provided for us when they owed us nothing. I studied hard, got a lot of scholarships, went to the best schools, got to a place in life where I could graduate straight into a 6-figure job. My brother went to the best schools, got a graduate degree. My Mom is a prof at one of Canada's top ranked universities. These things came because we worked hard, but also because most people in this country DON'T THINK LIKE YOU DO and see the value of helping those who are not doing as well as they are.

I will never vote the way you do, because I want to help more people get to where I am in life. I know what it is like at the bottom of a deep hole, and I will never, ever forget the generosity of those who took a position unlike yours. They gave me a chance; now it's my time to give that chance to somebody else.
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:43 AM   #123
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So what you're saying, anitram, is that sometimes good, decent, hardworking people must rely on Canada's social safety net due to situational forces outside of their complete control, and that they're not all lazy, blood-sucking deadbeats, content to live off of the public teat for the rest of their lives? I would have thought that signing up for welfare (because it's as simple as that, right? Anyone can do it) and living large off that monthly cheque would be the way to go.
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Old 12-04-2008, 01:09 AM   #124
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Yeah like Alberta has never had recessions. Balancing budgets and lowering taxes works the same everywhere. The oil simply made the results happen faster but they wouldn't have happened if we kept the 30 billion in debt.

But hey I'm in a la la land in perfect Alberta.


It's not about feeling sorry for yourself. It's about running your own life instead of someone else. Those values are what made Alberta good.

I know easterners. They come out west to get jobs and they have a sense of arrogance and entitlement that westerners find bizzare. I'm not the only one who feels that way. Even some easterners admit it. That's why they left.
So tell me, where and how much time have you spent outside Alberta?
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:30 AM   #125
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So tell me, where and how much time have you spent outside Alberta?
Tell me if a tree falls in the forest and you weren't personally there did it actually fall?

Economics applies in all countries because they all involve humans. Gravity doesn't change when I go to another region.

I like how people use arguments against me but avoid asking those questions to themselves. Why would I go live in the East when they have less jobs because of higher taxes and provincial trade barriers. Maybe if they elected conservatives and actually allowed them to pay off debt and reduce the size of government to a managable level they would have more jobs.

What do you not get? Alberta froze spending, paid down debt, and the money freed from interest payments went into tax cuts and some spending. This is why many people from the east move here because they are sick and tired of the economics in the east. Talking to them gives me some perspective but also looking at politics in the east and their history of the National Energy Program shows me plenty. I don't have to live there to understand left-wing policies.
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:44 AM   #126
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so... never then?
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:53 AM   #127
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Tell me if a tree falls in the forest and you weren't personally there did it actually fall?
Was the tree leaning left or right?

Seriously though, I'm taking that as a no, and from the rest of my post I take it that you are once again missing my point.
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Economics applies in all countries because they all involve humans. Gravity doesn't change when I go to another region.
Gravity is constant. Economics deals with hundreds of factors, this is what you seem to be forgetting, or something maybe you've never understood, I don't know. It's a poor analogy. The factors and circumstances in Rwanda are different from Detroit, the factors and circumstances in Detroit are different from Alberta. So your blanket head in the sand generalizations don't work everywhere.
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I like how people use arguments against me but avoid asking those questions to themselves.
No, actually everything I ask of you, I ask myself first.
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What do you not get?
I don't get how someone can live so sheltered and think that their upbringing, their theories, their insights work for the whole world. I don't get that, not one bit...
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:54 AM   #128
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I don't have to live there to understand left-wing policies.
Left-wing policies aside, you seem to make a lot of assumptions about how we live in the east, and eastern life in general. You do not seem to understand, as anitram said, that some of us do not vote with our pocketbook. Some of us vote our conscience. And you do not seem to understand, that generalizing and stereotyping an entire segment of the population makes you seem out of touch with the reality of the situation.

It's why I posed the question to you, and you did not answer. It's why BVS posed the question, and you answered, but not his question specifically.

So, I'll ask again: How much time have you spent in the East and how many easterners have you interacted with?
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:55 AM   #129
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I think the better question is where and how much time have you spent out of your house?
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:03 PM   #130
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That is because you think that I vote on my own financial self interest exclusively and that this is apparently how we all should vote. I couldn't disagree more.

I came to this country as a refugee. I had nothing but my family and the clothes on my back. I benefited greatly from the generosity of the Canadian people and the social safety net they provided for us when they owed us nothing. I studied hard, got a lot of scholarships, went to the best schools, got to a place in life where I could graduate straight into a 6-figure job. My brother went to the best schools, got a graduate degree. My Mom is a prof at one of Canada's top ranked universities. These things came because we worked hard, but also because most people in this country DON'T THINK LIKE YOU DO and see the value of helping those who are not doing as well as they are.

I will never vote the way you do, because I want to help more people get to where I am in life. I know what it is like at the bottom of a deep hole, and I will never, ever forget the generosity of those who took a position unlike yours. They gave me a chance; now it's my time to give that chance to somebody else.
What are you talking about? Conservatives aren't going to roll back the government to the point of the 1800's. This is exactly what the left does. They try and scare people into thinking that people will starve to death and the government will be wiped out under conservatives. You can trim the government to its essentials without starving the population and wiping out government.

We have less poverty in Alberta but we've also not eliminated ALL social programs. The argument is not to wipe out government and live in anarchy. Is that what you think happened in Alberta? Alberta is not a libertarian paradise.

The problem is that with the social programs we have people still complain that we need more and more. No matter how big the government gets people will ask for more. There is actually a limit you can tax people before they take their business (and jobs) elsewhere. Having a job is better than a social program. These programs are supposed to be temporary for healthy people. The rest of the public gets more money from work than from programs. If you want more jobs you can't over tax or else the desire to take risks in starting businesses and moving businesses to Ontario becomes less worth it compared to other regions.

There are plenty of immigrants who originally voted liberal for the same reasons you gave but now are voting conservative because when they get good jobs and they have to pay closer to half their paycheque they change their minds. People want to have an incentive to work. If you want social programs you have to PAY for it. When you add more layers of bureaucracy to administer social programs more money gets eaten up in paying them than going to the people who ask for programs. Putting more money into the hands of people who don't compete and therefore aren't efficient leads to a lower standard of living and it means it takes longer to find new jobs when you are inbetween jobs. The higher the taxes the harder you have to work to keep your job. The market is actually fragile and doesn't stand still when you increase taxes on it. You can actually kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Just look at Quebec and their higher than average unemployment even during the boom. Those economic policies are disappointing and talking about people helping you and giving back doesn't justify those policies. With large bureaucracies I see a lot of taking and little giving back.

BTW charities receive more money during an economic boom than a bust which just another example of why social programs and the poor rely more on not overreaching in the economy.
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:24 PM   #131
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I don't get how someone can live so sheltered and think that their upbringing, their theories, their insights work for the whole world. I don't get that, not one bit...
Well if this is what you believe then how did the west get wealthy in the first place? There's a serious lesson to made between the conquistadors of Spain robbing gold and the trading countries of England and Netherlands collecting it. Alms for the poor in the ruling classes didn't create the middle classes. Competition for labor and trade did. Does Rwanda have the same structures we have like private property rights, constitution, trade, justice? Maybe if they understood how it works and could implement them they wouldn't need our aid. Our ancestors didn't always have these policies or rights. Cultures may have lots of strength but they are not set in stone or else we wouldn't be talking right now on computers or going to school or voting at all. If anything we can see in history is that change is possible.

The one constant in all countries is that they involve humans and I don't think they would prefer bad policies if they knew better. Even if they know better they may not be in a position to create a successful revolution to kick out the bullies holding them back. Democracy wasn't handed to us it was fought for.
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:25 PM   #132
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I think the better question is where and how much time have you spent out of your house?

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Old 12-04-2008, 12:28 PM   #133
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Well if this is what you believe then how did the west get wealthy in the first place? There's a serious lesson to made between the conquistadors of Spain robbing gold and the trading countries of England and Netherlands collecting it. Alms for the poor in the ruling classes didn't create the middle classes. Competition for labor and trade did. Does Rwanda have the same structures we have like private property rights, constitution, trade, justice? Maybe if they understood how it works and could implement them they wouldn't need our aid. Our ancestors didn't always have these policies or rights. Cultures may have lots of strength but they are not set in stone or else we wouldn't be talking right now on computers or going to school or voting at all. If anything we can see in history is that change is possible.

The one constant in all countries is that they involve humans and I don't think they would prefer bad policies if they knew better. Even if they know better they may not be in a position to create a successful revolution to kick out the bullies holding them back. Democracy wasn't handed to us it was fought for.
What are you babbling about? You quoted something and didn't even address it!

Answer the questions and/or comments directly!
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:30 PM   #134
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Well if this is what you believe then how did the west get wealthy in the first place?
What I believe? Where was there a declarative about what I believe in that quote?

Once again you are taking one of your HUGE leaps of logic, why don't you focus on the here and now and the discussion at hand...
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:38 PM   #135
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What are you babbling about? You quoted something and didn't even address it!

Answer the questions and/or comments directly!
The point everyone is trying to make is that economics is different for different people in different regions in different countries and therefore my argument only works in Alberta.

I don't agree with that, so my answers show that. Do you think travelling to Toronto is going to make me vote liberal? Many easterners move to Alberta and keep voting liberal. Why should my beliefs be contained by personal travel? Liberals would like westerners to vote liberal and that's why they campaign in Alberta.

If personal travel was all that was needed then each region could argue for nation status on their own.

It's just a way to avoid arguing about economics. People on this site are more interested in politics than economics.
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