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Old 11-28-2008, 07:18 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
So true.

This poster is completely out of touch with reality, economics, and looking at this thread I may even know more about the workings going on within his countries own political parties...

It's just theories(which often he doesn't even understand) and mantras...
We have more government than you do and we still have higher unemployment and homeless. That's something you're going to have to figure out.

And how can I be out of touch if you agree about the role of saving money in the economy? If you agree with Krugman then you should spend as much as you can.

You're just a lazy poster that criticizes others but offers no worldview because you're afraid of getting criticized yourself. You also target me as "this poster" like I'm some weirdo because you understand that I can actually influence people with decent arguments compared to the average left-wing poster who thinks everybody should be left wing. I may be out of touch with left-wingers but I'm not out of touch with reality.
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:46 PM   #32
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Such humility.

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You also target me as "this poster" like I'm some weirdo because you understand that I can actually influence people with decent arguments compared to the average left-wing poster who thinks everybody should be left wing.
Perhaps it would be best if you stopped putting words into other people's mouths and stopped speaking about other people's intentions as if you know their thoughts.

And that goes for everyone here.
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:50 PM   #33
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That was a legitimate statement, one with an element of truth, purpleoscar has offered more articles and original posts with new content advocating free markets (rather than state supported monopolies like most people) without being pissy or rude.
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:52 PM   #34
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We have more government than you do and we still have higher unemployment and homeless. That's something you're going to have to figure out.
Your point?

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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
And how can I be out of touch if you agree about the role of saving money in the economy? If you agree with Krugman then you should spend as much as you can.
I agree that saving is the responsible thing to do whenever possible, but you make it the end all be all, you've even gone as far as saying it creates jobs, which no economist in their right mind would agree.
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You're just a lazy poster that criticizes others but offers no worldview because you're afraid of getting criticized yourself.
I'm not sure where you've been, but I constantly offer my worldview.
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You also target me as "this poster" like I'm some weirdo because you understand that I can actually influence people with decent arguments compared to the average left-wing poster who thinks everybody should be left wing.
This has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've read in here in awhile.
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I may be out of touch with left-wingers but I'm not out of touch with reality.
Oh, so anyone in financial hardship is now automatically left wing? This is why you come off as out of touch with reality. Your answer to Lila the other week, is why you seem out of touch with reality. The fact that you don't know the difference in some of your own political parties is why you come off as out of touch with reality. The list goes on and on...
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:55 PM   #35
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Well, Harper blinked, as I suspected. Now he's pushed the vote a week (to next Monday) realizing that he bit off more than he could chew. Pretty embarrassing.

At this stage, the opposition parties can sense the blood in the water and the way things are going may bring down to government irrespective of what Harper does.

He has only himself to blame.
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Old 11-28-2008, 08:10 PM   #36
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Well, Harper blinked, as I suspected. Now he's pushed the vote a week (to next Monday) realizing that he bit off more than he could chew. Pretty embarrassing.

At this stage, the opposition parties can sense the blood in the water and the way things are going may bring down to government irrespective of what Harper does.

He has only himself to blame.
I like the idea that taxpayers shouldn't be forced to provide funds to political parties. I also like the idea of waiting to see if the bailout in the U.S. actually works (so far lending is still tight and people are still paying off debt before they will borrow to buy more). If the left thinks we should just throw lots taxpayers money all over the place the deficit will have to be taken care of with higher taxes or spending cuts in the future which will cause controversy either way.

We will see. It's a minority government.
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Old 11-28-2008, 08:14 PM   #37
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Do you believe that it's prudent in these difficult times that our Prime Minister's main goal seems to be to agitate the opposition by threatening to bankrupt them? Is this $28 million, which is an amount that our government spends every hour of every day, by the way, the crucial thing that will pull us out of the recession? Or is it that Harper's thirst for power got him to do something incredibly stupid that has been panned by even the most unlikely sources?

You can reasonably agree that taxpayers shouldn't foot the bill. But if you think that this was done in the name of the taxpayer and not in the name of politicking of the most brazen kind, then you are extremely naive.

And if you do realize that it was nothing but politicking, then I can't understand how you think it would be acceptable to alienate all the opposition when you have a minority government and when the times are so unstable that you have no choice but to work with the opposition for the good of the country.

Harper's brazeness is so outrageous here that he deserves to get the boot for it.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:39 PM   #38
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Your point?
Why hasn't government wiped out poverty in Canada already? We have more social programs, so where are the results? In Sweden they have poor except they keep them off the street but they are still poor. Putting four walls around them doesn't mean the problem is gone. I want as many able bodied people to have self-esteem and to perservere. If you're not medically ill and are capable of doing some work there is opportunity in North America.

Most people only have a number of years to pay off a mortgage, raise kids, and save for retirement. It goes by fast. It's a window of opportunity that can be missed.

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I agree that saving is the responsible thing to do whenever possible, but you make it the end all be all, you've even gone as far as saying it creates jobs, which no economist in their right mind would agree.
How can you have a business without capital savings from individuals and spending from individuals? Consumer goods come from capital assets like Buildings and Machinery. Most companies can't pay for large assets like that without loans from the bank. The bank can't loan you money without savers at the other end saving and investing, unless the central bank creates money by lending to the banks which is inflationary. You need to read some more economists that aren't totally Keynesian. I think even some Keyensians would agree with some of what I'm talking about. Classic Keyensian economics expects deficits to be paid back during the recovery. But in practice that's remained elusive without unpopular spending cuts.

What happens to the economy when people don't have savings for retirement? The taxpayer gets extra burdens to pay for it. In the U.S. at least you guys have some children. In Canada we have less than 2 kids per family so we better open the flood gates of immigration. Yet that doesn't answer the problem because many go on programs right away and many are not that young. New Zealand in the '90's got into a crisis when their generous entitlements couldn't be paid because there wasn't enough taxes they could collect to do so. So what did they do? They cut benefits and for some people they had to go back to work despite being retired. I'm trying to establish limits to government. There are many wide eyed people who think the government is like Superman and completely credulous.

YouTube - Child Poverty in Canada

Look at this video. I thought the poverty programs were supposed to eliminate poverty. These pleas for government assistance even when answered never solve the problem. No sociologist ever asks the question about parents and their spending habits. Yet changes in spending habits lead to better results and faster results for those who aren't debilitated.

Look at this video during the War on poverty in the U.S. It's dated but there are many good points that still work today.

Ronald Reagan - A Time for Choosing

The reason why I harp on savings is that I want people to be proactive in their lives and realize much of their success comes from themselves. Whether you notice it or not, many people throughout the world believe in "the great leader" in saving them from their plight. I don't want people to rely on those guys. I want people to rely on themselves. What happened to the American way of "Live free or die!"? People in the past used to be energized by trying to improve their lives as individuals and to teach their kids morals that allowed for that success to happen. It's all laughed at now. People like Spike Lee look at the Republican party as "Father knows best" and "Leave it to beaver." I understand that people may not care and vote for left-wing parties for gay marriage and such but as you can see in the "Are you a socialist?" thread it's not only social issues that motivate this political preference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
I'm not sure where you've been, but I constantly offer my worldview.
You offer few posts longer than a couple of lines in responding to me mostly to talk about why I'm out of touch or that my posts are just misguided without any particular elaboration or detail that would further discussion. That's why it looks to me like it's intended as a way to stop conversation.

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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
This has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've read in here in awhile.
Calling me out of touch with no elaboration or counter-arguments with some depth gives me that impression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Oh, so anyone in financial hardship is now automatically left wing? This is why you come off as out of touch with reality. Your answer to Lila the other week, is why you seem out of touch with reality. The fact that you don't know the difference in some of your own political parties is why you come off as out of touch with reality. The list goes on and on...
She said she didn't want to hear about savings from me when I was talking to other posters. My post to Lila was looking at what she said and that if she can work and she feels squeezed I thought a student loan could improve her chances of higher income. If her medical condition prevents her from doing this then I'm not against her getting government assistance. I'm not an ultra-libertarian, but I'm aware that many healthy people have horrible finances that lead them to reliance on government and looking to government for the solution. (Look at Obama's commercial). If Lila is able to keep up a mortgage then she is technically saving anyways because that money goes towards something that has value in retirement. Good for her! Not all my posts are perfect and I'm trying to make them better and add more articles and detail per your many requests.

In regards to knowing my political parties in Canada I think my posts obviously show that I do. If the Green party wants to spend a whole ton of money more than NDP and say they are somehow quite conservative compared to them then I don't have to believe what they say. Elizabeth May was trying to defend stupid arts programs that yielded little showing her true colors. Harper didn't even cut that much. You'd think it was the end of the world in those debates.

Ka-ching, ka-ching: Spending promises by party

Quick rough add:

New spending promises:

Green 40 billion
NDP 18 billion
Liberals 14 billion
Conservatives 4 billion

The NDP was closer to Liberals this time out because Jack layton was getting good polling numbers and wanted to see if he could be the leader of the opposition instead of Dion. Some in CBC media were talking about him wanting to be a new Tony Blair.

If you add the Bloc that is 4 left wing parties. It's not even in the interest of the left to divide their vote and I still champion a two party system. I want clear choices that can be clearly judged by the electorate. There's so much competition on the left I don't see the Green party increasing much in votes.
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Old 11-28-2008, 11:00 PM   #39
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Just last week in Peru Harper said more spending and a deficit would be necessary to properly address this economic crisis and yet we saw nothing of the sort yesterday.
Flaherty and his boss don't seem to be on the same page
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Old 11-29-2008, 12:49 AM   #40
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Just last week in Peru Harper said more spending and a deficit would be necessary to properly address this economic crisis and yet we saw nothing of the sort yesterday.
Flaherty and his boss don't seem to be on the same page
Harper had a meeting with economists recently and he said they told him not to be afraid of deficits. In the election Conservatives were attacked for having a smaller surplus, and on CBC last week liberals were talking about attacking the Conservatives for having a deficit. Now that Harper has made his move the left can't attack the idea of a deficit because it would go against their criticism of no new stimulus package.

The problem with deficits is paying them back later when the recession is over. It's unpopular to do. At least Canada has paid down some overall debt so they aren't in the same position as the U.S. If the U.S. keeps going into double digit trillions of debt foreigners could sell their bonds and go elsewhere leaving the U.S. with no choice but to massively increase taxes to pay the bondholders or print money devaluing the currency.

What the left is most worried about is having a Bloc Quebecois losing their tax payer funded campaigns. More seats could go conservative or liberal. This is the chance for Layton to attempt to be prime minister if they take over without another election.

Interesting times.
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Old 11-29-2008, 08:40 AM   #41
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Well, perhaps if the Tories hadn't eliminated 2% of the GST we'd have a little more wiggleroom
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Old 11-29-2008, 10:45 AM   #42
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More from the National Post, which is the right wing national paper:

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Mr. Harper reacted like the boy who pokes the dog with a stick and then complains about being bitten. "The Opposition is working on an agreement in back corridors to reverse the result of the last election, without the consent of voters.... They want to put in place as prime minister someone [Stephane Dion] who was rejected by the voters of Canada only six weeks ago."

Mr. Harper has only himself to blame for his dilemma. It seems highly unlikely that we would be in this sorry state had his hubris not pushed him to try to beggar the opposition parties by cutting their public subsidy.

The Liberals say that their visceral reaction has nothing to do with political funding issue and that the primary concern is the lack of stimulus in the fiscal update that Finance Minister Jim Flaherty brought down this week. "[Mr. Harper] said in Peru that it's time for major fiscal stimulus but while he speaks like Franklin Delano Roosevelt, he acts like Calvin Coolidge," said Liberal MP John McCallum.

Whatever their protestations, there's a good rule of thumb that says when an MP tells you it's not about the money and that it's about the principle, then it's really about the money. The government has already said that it will bring down a budget within a matter of weeks and that there will be fiscal stimulus in that budget. Quite how a period of political instability, perhaps including a general election, would expedite that process remains unclear.

What is becoming clear is that Mr. Harper's power grab has rebounded on him. It led Jack Layton to ask former NDP leader Ed Broadbent to get in touch with former Liberal prime minister Jean Chretien and see if there was any common ground between the parties. It turns out there was -- everyone wanted to get rid of Mr. Harper. Having reached that conclusion, the idea gained momentum and now Mr. Harper's fate is no longer in his own hands.
About says it all.
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Old 11-29-2008, 12:00 PM   #43
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Well, perhaps if the Tories hadn't eliminated 2% of the GST we'd have a little more wiggleroom
Perhaps if we had less waste in government there would be more wiggle room

Perhaps if Liberals used their massive surpluses of over taxation during the boom when government revenues were optimal and paid down more debt we would have less debt interest to pay giving us more wiggle room

Liberals supporting the GST

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Old 11-29-2008, 12:33 PM   #44
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More from the National Post, which is the right wing national paper:



About says it all.
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More from the National Post, which is the right wing national paper:

About says it all.
Izzy Asper owns it so it's not that "right wing" and the article treats politics like it's sports. If the left take over they will have responsibilities and they won't go away because they did some manuver. It's ultimately not who wins but what policies get put in place. If the left want a deficit and to implement Green Shift they will be judged by those policies. The U.S. is in a huge deficit and overall debt and I don't see their stimulus actually saving jobs. You can have low interest rates and government spending and still have unemployment. Embarrassing Harper ignores policy completely and shows people looking at politics like it's an episode of Survivor. The conservatives simply said they will do a stimulus when they need it instead of following Bush and Obama over a cliff.

Another thing. If Harper just did a stimulus during the budget do you think that there wouldn't be any criticism of Harper for incurring a deficit? I know the liberals were saying that they were getting ready to criticize the budget because of the deficit. Harper didn't give them that option and now they have to criticize something else.

Nobody ever vets blame for consistency. That's why a lot of people get turned off by politics.

What would be interesting to see is the public's reaction to a new left wing coalition.
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Old 11-29-2008, 02:18 PM   #45
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I have nothing to say, except I've enjoyed reading this thread, for the most part. As a Canadian permanent resident, I can't vote anyway.
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