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Old 11-28-2008, 03:00 PM   #16
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Are you not aware of the fact that the Bloc has abandoned its sovereignty plank and so as things stand they are essentially little more than a Francophone leftist party? Your sovereignty ranting is very indicative of living in Alberta, I think you're parroting a lot of the party line re: Quebec when in reality the Bloc's position at the present time is nothing like what you are suggesting.

This is why a coalition was never feasible before but may now be.

The French papers in Quebec are reporting that Layton has only asked for two cabinet positions in a coalition - Minister of Finance and Minister of the Environment. So he is not exactly being onerous.
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:11 PM   #17
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Are you not aware of the fact that the Bloc has abandoned its sovereignty plank and so as things stand they are essentially little more than a Francophone leftist party? Your sovereignty ranting is very indicative of living in Alberta, I think you're parroting a lot of the party line re: Quebec when in reality the Bloc's position at the present time is nothing like what you are suggesting.

This is why a coalition was never feasible before but may now be.

The French papers in Quebec are reporting that Layton has only asked for two cabinet positions in a coalition - Minister of Finance and Minister of the Environment. So he is not exactly being onerous.
They are just a French NDP. Why don't they just join them?

I've already discussed the perils of a leftist coalition with a deficit. Have fun with that.
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:27 PM   #18
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They are just a French NDP.
Then why do you keep ranting about "separatists"?
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:51 PM   #19
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Then why do you keep ranting about "separatists"?
If they are not separatists then why don't they join the NDP? The only difference in their platforms in the past was Separation. It's a duplication of parties. They should get their funding like everybody else by people who volunteer their support. Let's see them win elections on their muddled goals. What is the point of having the left split by Liberal, Bloc, NDP, and Green? It's not a rant. It's a good question. There needs to be a purpose to a political party. Quebec already has a provincial government so why have a Federal party that is only elected in a province?

Come to think of it why aren't the Greens part of the NDP? There's not enough difference between Bloc, NDP and Greens to justify separate parties. Even if they all joined there would be 2 left leaning parties. It's like Reform vs. PC. It's pointless.
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Old 11-28-2008, 04:11 PM   #20
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You obviously don't know anything about the Green platform if you think that there is not enough difference between them and the NDP and Bloc.

The Green Party is actually very fiscally conservative as compared to the other two parties. Look up their tax policies and proposals for an idea. Most people seem to look at Green voters, who appear to be very left of centre and confuse that with the agenda of the Green Party, which also has considerably more conservative social views than the NDP.
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Old 11-28-2008, 04:23 PM   #21
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The Green Party is actually very fiscally conservative as compared to the other two parties.
I don't believe them but if you want the last word you can have it.
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Old 11-28-2008, 04:24 PM   #22
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I don't believe them but if you want the last word you can have it.
Why should we believe the Conservatives then?
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Old 11-28-2008, 04:31 PM   #23
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You know, it's funny. By reading what you're (purpleoscar) saying, it would seem that a left-leaning party in power inherently means deficit spending.

However, it would seem—and correct me if I'm wrong—that the Conservative Mulroney years left the country more in debt and in deficit. This was followed by the Chretien/Martin years where the books were balanced, surpluses generated, and the economy was in great shape.

Was that all a dream?
No. I've pointed that out here before, the myth that conservatism in power equals balanced budgets, where liberalism equals deficit spending, both here and in the US. Conservatives don't like to look at reality, though. The myth is much more appealing to them.
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Old 11-28-2008, 04:46 PM   #24
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No. I've pointed that out here before, the myth that conservatism in power equals balanced budgets, where liberalism equals deficit spending, both here and in the US. Conservatives don't like to look at reality, though. The myth is much more appealing to them.
If Liberals win a possible new election or run a new coalition I will love to see them cut programs to balance the budget. I'll hold them to it.
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Old 11-28-2008, 05:06 PM   #25
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They probably won't be able to initially, given the economic climate, but once things turn around they will.

With all this disdain for Keynesian economics you hold, you've never explained what is supposed to happen while waiting for the economy/market to straighten itself out. Should a significant part of the population be left to suffer while things straighten themselves out without intervention? If so, that's brutal. It's fine in theory, but when you're talking about real human suffering, theory doesn't (or shouldn't) always apply.
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Old 11-28-2008, 06:13 PM   #26
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They probably won't be able to initially, given the economic climate, but once things turn around they will.

With all this disdain for Keynesian economics you hold, you've never explained what is supposed to happen while waiting for the economy/market to straighten itself out. Should a significant part of the population be left to suffer while things straighten themselves out without intervention? If so, that's brutal. It's fine in theory, but when you're talking about real human suffering, theory doesn't (or shouldn't) always apply.
If you read the Obama's plan thread I started you will see my arguments. Many of them relate to what individuals can do.

We have 40% of the economy controlled by the public sector so people won't starve. Most people won't lose their jobs. Even during the depression there was 75% of people who looked for work found it. Those people should save and pay down their debts so they are more confident. That's how the economy improves. This top down coaxing to get people to spend ignores the fact that many consumers are tapped out. Savings is simply a buffer for expenses to help you with periodic unemployment and retirement.

We have lots of institutional social programs that exist (that were supposed to elminate poverty ) and the left looks at every down cycle as a way to increase the size of government. I know this for a fact since I went to Sociology class where this was used as a good strategy by the instructor to give people government jobs and to increase their influence. Bloating the deficit really big will make it hard to do the cuts necessary in the future to balance the budget because cutting government jobs leads to loud protest.

Then the only option at that point is to increase taxes and fees solidifying the new size of government. People have to ask themselves how much government is enough for them and not be so credulous about social programs like they are really going to eliminate negative consequences for people's bad choices. We have so much government yet there are still homeless. That shows it's mainly up to us on how we can succeed. Even low paying jobs can allow for motivated people to inact deep savings that requires self-discipline to achieve financial independence goals. At least in this country that is possible. In most of the world the systems don't have enough freedom to allow it. I don't think we need 60-80% in the hands of the government. The programs we have now can feed the population.

Of course I could just abandon my beliefs and just push as hard as possible to get a good government job and join the left and I can be the good guy talking about the poor and get nice retirement benefits and retire at the age of 50 and leave the taxpayer with a bill. Sounds like a plan!
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Old 11-28-2008, 06:34 PM   #27
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You are so out of touch with the realities that many people face that it seems pointless to attempt discussion with you. I guess I should have known that from the time that you advised Lila to take out a student loan. I'll learn my lesson eventually, I guess.

All you do is come back with Conservative talking points based in theory that's useless when people are really hurting, oftentimes due to situations out of their control. Rather than pick your post apart point by point, I'll just say that the reasons for poverty, dealing with job loss, and the struggles of the working poor are not black and white, and your overly simplistic, black and white solutions can't be applied to all cases.

You seem so damn smug when you preach your usual crap, as if you have all the answers. Trust me, you don't. I sincerely and genuinely mean that. Wow.
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Old 11-28-2008, 06:44 PM   #28
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Of course I could just abandon my beliefs and just push as hard as possible to get a good government job and join the left and I can be the good guy talking about the poor and get nice retirement benefits and retire at the age of 50 and leave the taxpayer with a bill. Sounds like a plan!
Yeah, because all of us on the left do that for a living.

Give me a break.
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:00 PM   #29
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You are so out of touch with the realities that many people face that it seems pointless to attempt discussion with you. I guess I should have known that from the time that you advised Lila to take out a student loan. I'll learn my lesson eventually, I guess.

All you do is come back with Conservative talking points based in theory that's useless when people are really hurting, oftentimes due to situations out of their control. Rather than pick your post apart point by point, I'll just say that the reasons for poverty, dealing with job loss, and the struggles of the working poor are not black and white, and your overly simplistic, black and white solutions can't be applied to all cases.

You seem so damn smug when you preach your usual crap, as if you have all the answers. Trust me, you don't. I sincerely and genuinely mean that. Wow.
So true.

This poster is completely out of touch with reality, economics, and looking at this thread I may even know more about the workings going on within his countries own political parties...

It's just theories(which often he doesn't even understand) and mantras...
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:11 PM   #30
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I don't believe them but if you want the last word you can have it.
I'm sorry but that's the most ridiculous line of argument you've used yet and that's saying a lot.

So you've deemed the NDP and the Greens to be the same because YOU think that the Green platform is a lie and so you're going with your own definition of what the party stands for.

Great. Then the Conservatives are the same as the Liberals. I don't believe their platform, but if you want the last word you can have it.
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