Canadian Election aka Let Borefest '08 begin!

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I do appreciate some of the questions and points that Duceppe made though, so in some cases he was useful.

The host was good. The whole thing is soooo different from the US version of things. Discussion as opposed to speaking at :up:
 
snowbunny00774 said:
I do appreciate some of the questions and points that Duceppe made though, so in some cases he was useful.

The host was good. The whole thing is soooo different from the US version of things. Discussion as opposed to speaking at :up:
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Yes to both of your points. :up: Duceppe is very thoughtful, and he does act as a kind of wing-man for the other parties when the attack is on Harper.

A really interesting possibility is that the Bloc may very well 'block' a Conservative majority if they continue their rise in the polls in Quebec. :drool:
 
Well, it certainly wasn't Elton John (missed his concert here tonight :sad:), but the debate was pretty engaging...I love the new format. May rocked...Dion scored numerous points, and probably earned a few metric tonnes of new respect.

We should have another rockin' Canadian election party on the 14th! :rockon: :wink:
 
I managed to watch the US debate but my silly vcr(yes I still have one) didn't tape the Canadian debate. I'm hoping it's on YouTube somewhere. I did catch the debate in French from Wed night. Was last night's debate format similar but with an audience?
 
angelordevil said:
Well, it certainly wasn't Elton John (missed his concert here tonight :sad:), but the debate was pretty engaging...I love the new format. May rocked...Dion scored numerous points, and probably earned a few metric tonnes of new respect.

We should have another rockin' Canadian election party on the 14th! :rockon: :wink:
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In. :up:



and yeah, I don't mind the Bloc rising at all - he's seems like a very thoughtful guy and it's good to have one of those around. Agreed Dion came off very well, and May being there was great - I'm quite happy she made use of it.

Layton seemed a little loose canonish, and thank god for Tommy Douglas or he'd have nothing to refer to all night.

Harper, well, yeah, I just had one of those shiver things come over me when I typed his name. He could fit right into a Stephen King novel or something :skeeved:



That sucks you missed your show :(


No audience last night Slip, pre recorded questions from a selection of Canadians.
 
Cool...thanks. I'm going to have to find some of those then...sounds interesting.

Did I hear correctly that Duceppe told the other 3 that they aren't going to win or something like that?
 
The Liberals look at NDP as keeping the Conservatives in power, and the NDP criticize the Liberals for keeping the conservatives in power.

Stephen Harper couldn't have it better.:applaud:

It also helps that the Liberal, NDP and Green plans would guarantee a budget deficit, while Harper is still in the black despite a downturn in the business cycle.
 
globeandmail.com: Grim Afghan assessment backs NDP's position, says Layton

Grim Afghan assessment backs NDP's position, says Layton
TARA BRAUTIGAM
Canadian Press

October 5, 2008 at 6:05 PM EDT

ST. JOHN'S — A warning from Britain's most senior military commander that the Afghanistan war cannot be won and may only be resolved through peace talks involving the Taliban validates the NDP's position on the conflict, party Leader Jack Layton said Sunday.

Mr. Layton, campaigning Sunday in St. John's, said Brig.-Gen. Mark Carleton-Smith's assessment echoes the view of his party and many voters who want Canada's troops out of the war-ravaged country.

“I'm heartened by the words of this senior military commander who is adding his voice to those many, many Canadians and others around the world who believe that the prosecution of the continued war effort has got to be changed,” Mr. Layton said.

“The New Democrats came out very early with this view and we've continued to argue respectfully with those who disagree that there's got to be a new path ... Let's hope that more and more people are reaching this conclusion.”

Defence Minister Peter MacKay repeated the Conservative government's position that any negotiations with the Taliban must be led by the Afghan government.

He said Mr. Layton was wrong to interpret Carleton-Smith's opinion as support for the NDP's stance.

“Jack's off base as he is on so many issues,” said Mr. MacKay, who was also in St. John's to shore up support for the Conservatives.

“Mr. Layton's position has been that we should completely capitulate and somehow sit down and talk with the Taliban, which is impossible for the Canadian government to do.”

Mr. MacKay did not say whether he agreed that the war in Afghanistan was not winnable.

But Mr. MacKay said he read Carleton-Smith's remarks in the Sunday Times of London “with great interest” because the British commander supported the Conservative position that the Afghan government must lead any discussions with the Taliban.

However, the newspaper did not quote Brig.-Gen. Carleton-Smith saying that.

John Manley, who led a non-partisan panel on Canada's current and future military role in Afghanistan, said he wasn't surprised by Brig.-Gen.Carleton-Smith's comments because the panel came to a similar conclusion in January.

The Taliban movement is not a monolithic entity and there are people behind the insurgency who can be persuaded there is a non-violent way to end the war, Mr. Manley said.

“When you use decapitation as a method of persuasion, it's hard to find common ground with those people, but we shouldn't allow ourselves to go down the road of thinking that's the only group that's out there,” Mr. Manley told CTV on Sunday.

“There are a lot that are different from that and we need to build bridges with them and we need to make their lives better. We need to make sure that we are empowering those groups in society, particularly women, who can offset that.”

Mr. Manley said members of NATO and the United Nations must be engaged, emphasizing that Pakistan's involvement in a settlement would be critical for peace to be lasting.

Two years ago, Mr. Layton was derided for suggesting there should be a dialogue with the Taliban.

That prompted the Conservatives to label Mr. Layton “Taliban Jack.”
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I had been all but decided on voting NDP (turns out the race here this year is actually close for the first time in a decade), but this changes everything. I won't vote NDP ever, so long as Jack Layton is the leader. Iraq is generally fucked, but Afghanistan isn't hopeless. There IS progress.
 
Jack Layton is trying to be in the official opposition seat because the NDP hasn't been this close in so long. The liberals have a weak leader that will be ousted if he doesn't win.
 
elevated_u2_fan said:
The problem is that we don't hear about the progress... Progress does not make for good news, no we hear about the roadside bombs and the suicide attacks and the soldiers being killed...
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Well, here's a bit of progress reported today on CNN.COM :


Sources: Taliban split with al Qaeda, seek peace


King Abdullah hosted talks in city of Mecca at end of September, source says

Saudi Arabia has generally dealt with Afghanistan through Pakistan

Talks are the first aimed at bringing a negotiated settlement to the Afghan conflict

All parties agreed only solution to Afghan conflict is dialogue, not fighting
By Nic Robertson
CNN Senior International Correspondent


LONDON, England (CNN) -- Taliban leaders are holding Saudi-brokered talks with the Afghan government to end the country's bloody conflict -- and are severing their ties with al Qaeda, sources close to the historic discussions have told CNN.


King Abdullah of Saudia Arabia hosted meetings between the Afghan government and the Taliban, a source says.

The militia, which has been intensifying its attacks on the U.S.-led coalition that toppled it from power in 2001 for harboring Osama bin Laden's terrorist network, has been involved in four days of talks hosted by Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah, says the source.

The talks -- the first of their kind aimed at resolving the lengthy conflict in Afghanistan -- mark a significant move by the Saudi leadership to take a direct role in Afghanistan, hosting delegates who have until recently been their enemies.

They also mark a sidestepping of key "war on terror" ally Pakistan, frequently accused of not doing enough to tackle militants sheltering on its territory, which has previously been a conduit for talks between the Saudis and Afghanistan.

According to the source, fugitive Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar -- high on the U.S. military's most-wanted list -- was not present, but his representatives were keen to stress the reclusive cleric is no longer allied to al Qaeda.

Details of the Taliban leader's split with al Qaeda have never been made public before, but the new claims confirm what another source with an intimate knowledge of the militia and Mullah Omar has told CNN in the past.

The current round of talks, said to have been taken two years of intense behind-the-scenes negotiations to come to fruition, is anticipated to be the first step in a long process to secure a negotiated end to the conflict.

But U.S.- and Europe-friendly Saudi Arabia's involvement has been propelled by a mounting death toll among coalition troops amid a worsening violence that has also claimed many civilian casualties.

A Saudi source familiar with the talks confirmed that they happened and said the Saudis take seriously their role in facilitating discussions between parties to the conflict.

A second round of talks is scheduled to take place in two months, the Saudi source said.

The Afghan government believes the Taliban cannot be defeated militarily, and the Taliban believe that they can't win a war against the U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan, the Saudi source said.

The involvement of the Saudis is also seen as an expression of fear that Iran could take advantage of U.S. failings in Afghanistan, as it is seen to be doing in Iraq.

Several Afghan sources familiar with Iranian activities in Afghanistan have said Iranian officials and diplomats who are investing in business and building education facilities are lobbying politicians in Kabul. Learn more about King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia »

The Afghan sources wish to remain anonymous due to their political roles.

Coalition commanders regularly accuse Iran of arming the Taliban, and Western diplomats privately suggest that Iran is working against U.S. interests in Afghanistan, making it harder to bring peace.

Saudi sources say perceived Iranian expansionism is one of Saudi Arabia's biggest concerns. Watch CNN's Nic Robertson report on the meeting »

The talks in Mecca took place between September 24 and 27 and involved 11 Taliban delegates, two Afghan government officials, a representative of former mujahadeen commander and U.S. foe Gulbadin Hekmatyar, and three others.

King Abdullah broke fast during the Eid al-Fitr holiday with the 17-member Afghan delegation -- an act intended to show his commitment to ending the conflict. Eid al-Fitr marks the end of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of fasting. Learn more about Ramadan »

Saudi Arabia was one of only three countries that recognized the Taliban leadership during its rule over Afghanistan in the 1990s, but that relationship was severed over Mullah Omar's refusal to hand over bin Laden.


During the talks, described as an ice breaker, all parties agreed that the only solution to Afghanistan's conflict is through dialogue, not fighting.

Further talks are expected in Saudi Arabia involving this core group and others.

______________________________________

I just went to my local electoral office to register as I moved from Ottawa to T.O. in July. For those of you who have moved recently and are worried about the bureaucracy involved, it's quite simple - bring one piece of gov't id plus a piece of "official" mail with your address on it(credit card statement, bill, government cheque, etc) to your local elections office. The deadline to register is tomorrow at 6pm.
We got to vote as well, thus avoiding the lines on Tuesday.
 
I'm a member of my local Make Poverty History group and we got to interview Ignatieff yesterday afternoon at his office - he was personable, charming even if he was 40 mins late.. I hope he succeeds Dion :up:

So the election is one day away - what does everyone think about the possibiliity of an NDP/Liberal coalition? Possible,feasible? Would you support it?

I've got mixed feelings about it as it'd only prolong Dion's leadership and I'm not sure I'd want the NDP in power when we're in the midst of an economic crisis..:hmm:
 
I'm so glad an economist is going to be prime minister when the business cycle is in it's downturn. Liberal to Green would put us into deficit. You can't collect as much tax revenue when companies have losses. You have to have a gain to pay tax. Also when there are losses they can be carried back to prior year gains to get refunds.

Dion wanted a carbon tax and when asked about the failure in the Europe in slowing emissions he responded that there were other tax cuts that got in the way. They obviously decided against the cuts because it would hurt the economy and the political parties would be kicked out.

The NDP is pushing against the liberals because Jack Layton was higher in the polls for overall leadership and he wants to be the opposition leader. This is why they are against strategic voting.
 
Stephen Harper is very lucky the election is tomorrow.

If it was in 3-4 weeks, he'd find himself on the outs.
 
Because of a deepening economic crisis or Obama winning the U.S. presidency?

I don't know about the Liberals putting us into a deficit - history has shown the right-wingers are more prone to engage in reckless spending so (Bush 1 and 2, Reagan, Mulroney, Thatcher, Mike Harris, etc, etc)...
 
I don't think Canadians are as concerned about the financial crisis, at least not your average Joe voter. The US election would have killed him in combination with the fact that he can't seem to run a disciplined campaign for longer than a week or so at a time. He really benefits from a short campaign period more than anyone.
 
I've heard and seen an awful lot of Liberal and NDP ads in recent days referring to the financial crisis and Harper's denial that there's even a problem, so at the very least, they must feel that they are tapping into the public's fear.
 
VintagePunk said:
I've heard and seen an awful lot of Liberal and NDP ads in recent days referring to the financial crisis and Harper's denial that there's even a problem, so at the very least, they must feel that they are tapping into the public's fear.
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Yep, and the Conservatives' numbers went down after the debates and everyone ganging up on Harper was a factor but the fact Dion had a plan for the economy and Harper hadn't even produced a platform surely contributed to their decline as well. Harper may be right, perhaps our fundamentals are strong and our economy is relatively sound but I can't help but think the average Canadian is nervous by the crisis in the U.S.

Martina, I'll have to disagree about the U.S. election because I'm still absolutely convinced McCain will win.
Hopefully I'm wrong though..
 
ladywithspinninghead said:
Because of a deepening economic crisis or Obama winning the U.S. presidency?

I don't know about the Liberals putting us into a deficit - history has shown the right-wingers are more prone to engage in reckless spending so (Bush 1 and 2, Reagan, Mulroney, Thatcher, Mike Harris, etc, etc)...
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Mulroney inherited from Trudeau, and had huge opposition to social spending cuts. He would have to raise taxes to balance the budget. Jean and Paul balanced the budgets by reducing health spending. I guess if Liberals do it then government workers don't complain as much. :hmm:

Reagan inherited from Jimmy Carter and democrats in charge in congress and he was also stalled on spending by those same Democrats in congress during his 2 terms.

The conservatives that controlled spending are Klein in Alberta, and the congress during the '90's with Gingrich, and now Harper is holding the reins.

Thatcher was only able to slow down the growth of debt. Mike Harris lowered taxes before getting a handle on spending. Big mistake. Harper seems to have learned that lesson. Paying down debt helps to keep taxes low because the interest payments are easier to handle.
 
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