elevated_u2_fan
Blue Crack Supplier
ugh... yet another reason not to vote
Canadian Election aka Let Borefest '08 begin!
- Thread starter bonoman
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
BoMac
Self-righteous bullshitter
Beav, what foreign policy experience do you guys have other than being next to Canada, and, in some instances, being able to see Canada from afar? That doesn't make you qualified to.....oh, wait.
UberBeaver
Breakdancing Soul Pilgrim
Beav, what foreign policy experience do you guys have other than being next to Canada, and, in some instances, being able to see Canada from afar? That doesn't make you qualified to.....oh, wait.
I have a passport and a Warriors spirit.
bonoman
Refugee
I hope you all relize what clear minded rational Albertans have to put up with on a day to day basis! Her view is common here in Alberta, they're Conservative but can't explain what policies that the party has that they agree with. And you think this is bad ýou should study out prov. elections!
Oh, got a great story from my riding in Fort McMurray! Brian Jean, the conservative running here (basicallý unopposed, the Liberal has allready said he won't campaign!) was at our union meeting on Thursday. Fort Mac is a union town, though less and less by the day but still very union. So he asked if he could stop into our meeting and talk to members and ask the union for support, why I don't know! He got up to the mic and went on about how the Liberals are going to shutdown the Oilsands and how the NEP killed Albertas economy and that the "green shaft" was the NEP in sheeps clothing. When he was done trying to scare the shit out of a hundred or so construction workers he asked if anyone had any questions. Well did he get an earful! As much as people here make their livelyhoods from oil they are very concerned about the environment and the health impacts from working and living so close to these plants. Not only that they are also see the conservatives as the anti union party. His response was that his brother is a union ironworker and someone yelled out "then he hates you too!" Someone motioned to have a show of hands to see if the union should publicly support him and after the sea of hands raised after the nay voted he thanked us and left. It was priceless!
Oh, got a great story from my riding in Fort McMurray! Brian Jean, the conservative running here (basicallý unopposed, the Liberal has allready said he won't campaign!) was at our union meeting on Thursday. Fort Mac is a union town, though less and less by the day but still very union. So he asked if he could stop into our meeting and talk to members and ask the union for support, why I don't know! He got up to the mic and went on about how the Liberals are going to shutdown the Oilsands and how the NEP killed Albertas economy and that the "green shaft" was the NEP in sheeps clothing. When he was done trying to scare the shit out of a hundred or so construction workers he asked if anyone had any questions. Well did he get an earful! As much as people here make their livelyhoods from oil they are very concerned about the environment and the health impacts from working and living so close to these plants. Not only that they are also see the conservatives as the anti union party. His response was that his brother is a union ironworker and someone yelled out "then he hates you too!" Someone motioned to have a show of hands to see if the union should publicly support him and after the sea of hands raised after the nay voted he thanked us and left. It was priceless!
unforgettableFOXfire
I serve MacPhisto
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2001
- Messages
- 2,053
In response to Layton's 'A New Kind of Strong' video, which is broken down into three quick points about the 'strengths' of Harper.
- Tax cuts to make Canada more competitive in global markets help our economy, and the fact that there are so many impoverished children when our economy is the strongest it's been in ages is a sign of deeper social issues that existed before Harper and will continue to exist no matter who takes over next -- Including Layton. That Harper cut taxes has nothing to do with these children: it isn't the reason they're living in poverty, it isn't the cause of their woes, and if the economy nosedives because we tax ourselves out of competition in global markets then there'll be even more impoverished children.
- Canadians have always had trouble finding family doctors, especially in Ontario. I haven't had a doctor since I was in highschool, which is when the Liberals were in power. Again, not a conservative problem. Can Harper fix it with a minority government? No. Could Layton fix it even if he had a majority? Certainly not. Unless he plans on restructuring the entire economy and medical system, which is frankly infeasible.
- Record high gas prices have little to do with Harper. Gas taxes, while those involve Harper to some extent, are also necessary. First and foremost, because we treat oil like a necessity when it is a luxury. We talk tough about saving the environment, and then we still drive 5 minutes to the store and leave our cars idling in the lot. High cost of fuel forces people to put their money where their mouth is in terms of conservation. As I said earlier, Harper has nothing to do with the oilsands project, which is the endeavour of private enterprise and has been going on for two decades.
Sincere bullshit is still bullshit, and Layton is just as full of it as he's ever been, even though he seems sincere. If he believes strongly in what he's doing, that's great, but feeling strongly doesn't pay the bills. Part of this whole discussion has been about people 'feeling' things and not backing them up: my problem with Layton is that he can't back up his claims. He's a panderer and a manipulator first and foremost. He isn't an administrator, he isn't an executor, he's an idealist. Harper may send off his children with a handshake, but the part of that story that noone talks about is that he respects his kids and respects that they don't want to be hugged in front of their friends -- forget the whole nation -- but we allow people to spin it and make him seem fake and inhuman. Even if I conceed that Harper isn't human and is entirely fake, at least he's got more in his bag of tricks than solely spin doctory.
- Tax cuts to make Canada more competitive in global markets help our economy, and the fact that there are so many impoverished children when our economy is the strongest it's been in ages is a sign of deeper social issues that existed before Harper and will continue to exist no matter who takes over next -- Including Layton. That Harper cut taxes has nothing to do with these children: it isn't the reason they're living in poverty, it isn't the cause of their woes, and if the economy nosedives because we tax ourselves out of competition in global markets then there'll be even more impoverished children.
- Canadians have always had trouble finding family doctors, especially in Ontario. I haven't had a doctor since I was in highschool, which is when the Liberals were in power. Again, not a conservative problem. Can Harper fix it with a minority government? No. Could Layton fix it even if he had a majority? Certainly not. Unless he plans on restructuring the entire economy and medical system, which is frankly infeasible.
- Record high gas prices have little to do with Harper. Gas taxes, while those involve Harper to some extent, are also necessary. First and foremost, because we treat oil like a necessity when it is a luxury. We talk tough about saving the environment, and then we still drive 5 minutes to the store and leave our cars idling in the lot. High cost of fuel forces people to put their money where their mouth is in terms of conservation. As I said earlier, Harper has nothing to do with the oilsands project, which is the endeavour of private enterprise and has been going on for two decades.
Sincere bullshit is still bullshit, and Layton is just as full of it as he's ever been, even though he seems sincere. If he believes strongly in what he's doing, that's great, but feeling strongly doesn't pay the bills. Part of this whole discussion has been about people 'feeling' things and not backing them up: my problem with Layton is that he can't back up his claims. He's a panderer and a manipulator first and foremost. He isn't an administrator, he isn't an executor, he's an idealist. Harper may send off his children with a handshake, but the part of that story that noone talks about is that he respects his kids and respects that they don't want to be hugged in front of their friends -- forget the whole nation -- but we allow people to spin it and make him seem fake and inhuman. Even if I conceed that Harper isn't human and is entirely fake, at least he's got more in his bag of tricks than solely spin doctory.
bonoman
Refugee
Fox, you're third point is badically right but Harper did promise that if gas prices did go higher than 85cents he'd drop the gas tax. Well gas hasn't seen 85cents in a long time and there was never any talk about him dropping the tax. Not that I think he should but he did run on that platform in the last election.
I meet Jack Layton during the last federal election and he does speak to the common man and woman. He just needs to stop being such an idealist, like you said. Sometimes I really like the multi partÝ system but when you look at the polling, 60-65% of Canadians would vote for left leaning parties. Now if I was a conservative I would love Þhis system. But does it represent Canada accurately? The multi party system, especially considering we have 5 party polling at or above 10%, is best served with proportional representation. But then we get more minority govts and more coalition gov'ts. I just struggle to figure out who has a better system, Canada, USA, or Ireland.
I meet Jack Layton during the last federal election and he does speak to the common man and woman. He just needs to stop being such an idealist, like you said. Sometimes I really like the multi partÝ system but when you look at the polling, 60-65% of Canadians would vote for left leaning parties. Now if I was a conservative I would love Þhis system. But does it represent Canada accurately? The multi party system, especially considering we have 5 party polling at or above 10%, is best served with proportional representation. But then we get more minority govts and more coalition gov'ts. I just struggle to figure out who has a better system, Canada, USA, or Ireland.
Heh...this reminds me of the time I whimsically suggested that we return to Old English spellings of "th," (Þ/þ, as in "thorn"; ð as in "them").
GibsonGirl
ONE love, blood, life
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2002
- Messages
- 13,270
I'm interested...what do those of you on "the mainland" think about Danny Williams' ABC (Anything But Conservative) campaign?
elevated_u2_fan
Blue Crack Supplier
As someone who hates the Conservatives I like it.
As a realist, it seems like a bad idea if the Conservatives win the election and get a majority this time...
As a realist, it seems like a bad idea if the Conservatives win the election and get a majority this time...
VintagePunk
Blue Crack Distributor
I agree. That's always been one of the main problems of the NDP party. They have this utopian vision, but government only has a limited amount of dollars to pay for it.
bonoman
Refugee
Heh...this reminds me of the time I whimsically suggested that we return to Old English spellings of "th," (Þ/þ, as in "thorn"; ð as in "them").
Just to clarify, I have no idea what you're talking about! Haha! Its something my blackberry does all the time. I'm glad you knew what I was saying! Mý pickle fingers arn't cut out for such little keys. Oh how I've missed interference and FYM!
bonoman
Refugee
I love it, but I'm not a Newfoundlander! Its great for Liberals because Danny Williams gets press right across the country. But as was said, its not going to be good if a majority happens.
On the Danny Williams issue: I love the guy! Why don't he run for federal politics? I know most people like politictions from other places! But with his newfie charm and his sort of independent streak, OH forget it, independence isn't going to get him anywhere in federal politics! Does anyone know if he's ever considered federal politics or talked about it?
GibsonGirl
ONE love, blood, life
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2002
- Messages
- 13,270
Two positive responses, at least! In a lot of the news blogs I've been reading, the general consensus seems to be "Danny Williams is a silly, freeloading Newfie who should drop his personal vendettas - doesn't he realise that the Liberal carbon taxes will hurt his province even more than Harper's failed promises?" What most of these people fail to understand is that the ABC campaign is not about money or Newfoundland and Labrador's oil industry. It's about holding Harper and the federal Conservatives accountable for what they did (re: equalisation payments). It's about issues of trust and respect. How can Newfoundlanders -- or Atlantic Canadians in general -- support the leadership of a man who claims that this area of the country is spurred on by little more than a "culture of defeatism"? His view of this region is so utterly distorted by stereotypes, it's not even funny. Mark my words, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador will almost certainly vote Liberal/NDP next month. I wish I could vote, too. (Bah, citizenship laws.)
Premier Williams is just about the only conservative politician I've ever admired. He has done a lot for NL. Does he behave like a child sometimes? Yes...but even so, it's hard not to like him. And no, I don't know if he has considered (or is considering) getting involved with federal politics.
angelordevil
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
I was wondering where the sleepy Canadian election thread was! Buried! Great post, Steph. You’re a really good writer, by the way.
My opinion on “Danny” (I cringe at the first-name-only tag, on occasion) is that both his heart and head are on the right side of this issue. Yes, he has come across as a child (a second occasion for cringing), however, the fact that he has to stoop to such a level ultimately says more about Harper than it does about him. As a region, we’re but a blip on his radar screen. Williams knows this, and probably realizes that the only way get Harper’s (and the national media’s) attention is to rant and roar, and dance around with a giant Puffin on stage. It’s a shame, but it ultimately gets his point in the general discourse, even if it’s not addressed through policy. Bottom line, as you say, is that Harper outright lied…and that fact should carry a massive amount of weight. On top of this, not only has he said Atlantic Canadians are immersed in a culture of defeatism, but he’s also told Williams in person that he doesn’t need the support of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to get elected and to sell his agenda to the country.
Since you wrote your post, that “agenda” has continued to rear its ugly head and evolve into something even more disturbing. He’s called people in the arts community “elites” and something ‘ordinary’ Canadians cannot relate to. He also said in a speech last week that “…this is no time for new ideas.” He actually said that, in reference to The Liberal Green Shift plan. The Green Shift plan is an idea that needs to happen, no matter what the party.
The environment, to me, is the key issue of our time. Harper is fear mongering on this issue, saying how carbon taxes will cripple industry and dismantle the economy. On the contrary, such a plan will punish polluters, and reward people and businesses that are kind to the planet. The potential for growth in green industries here in Newfoundland is enormous, with wind power, and so on. The science is indisputable on the issues of global warming. Canada, embarrassingly, is on the verge of becoming one the worst polluters on the planet, per capita. How does Harper address this? He doesn’t. The latest news is that he now wants the big debate on Thursday night to feature an extended discussion on “the economy.” He’ll likely urge us to “stay the course,” and stick it out. No surprises. No new ideas.
I’ve given Harper a chance to earn his wings, but he keeps spiraling downward with each passing day. I’ll admit, there were moments before the election when I actually started thinking that he wasn’t such a bad leader. I even became numbed to his fishing vests and interesting collection of blue sweaters. Just last week, I even thought “in spite of his flaws, he’s the best-spoken, most organized of the bunch.”
I’ve since come around from that momentary lapse of reason and realized that Harper and his party are a bunch of chameleons that have somehow convinced a historically Liberal country to vote for them. Not only vote for them, but to give them a majority!
I don’t use the word “chameleon” lightly, either. This absolutely blew my mind today when I read it, given the historical significance of the moment: globeandmail.com: Tories admit plagiarism in Harper speech
In terms of an “ABC” campaign, I’ve gone back and forth with deciding who I’ll be supporting. I hate to vote strategically, but, in a country that has yet to adopt much-needed proportional representation, the Liberals represent the most viable way to curb the Conservatives, protect the environment, and bring back the country I know and love.
Buried! Great post, Steph. You’re a really good writer, by the way. My opinion on “Danny” (I cringe at the first-name-only tag, on occasion) is that both his heart and head are on the right side of this issue. Yes, he has come across as a child (a second occasion for cringing), however, the fact that he has to stoop to such a level ultimately says more about Harper than it does about him. As a region, we’re but a blip on his radar screen. Williams knows this, and probably realizes that the only way get Harper’s (and the national media’s) attention is to rant and roar, and dance around with a giant Puffin on stage. It’s a shame, but it ultimately gets his point in the general discourse, even if it’s not addressed through policy. Bottom line, as you say, is that Harper outright lied…and that fact should carry a massive amount of weight. On top of this, not only has he said Atlantic Canadians are immersed in a culture of defeatism, but he’s also told Williams in person that he doesn’t need the support of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to get elected and to sell his agenda to the country.
Since you wrote your post, that “agenda” has continued to rear its ugly head and evolve into something even more disturbing. He’s called people in the arts community “elites” and something ‘ordinary’ Canadians cannot relate to. He also said in a speech last week that “…this is no time for new ideas.” He actually said that, in reference to The Liberal Green Shift plan. The Green Shift plan is an idea that needs to happen, no matter what the party.
The environment, to me, is the key issue of our time. Harper is fear mongering on this issue, saying how carbon taxes will cripple industry and dismantle the economy. On the contrary, such a plan will punish polluters, and reward people and businesses that are kind to the planet. The potential for growth in green industries here in Newfoundland is enormous, with wind power, and so on. The science is indisputable on the issues of global warming. Canada, embarrassingly, is on the verge of becoming one the worst polluters on the planet, per capita. How does Harper address this? He doesn’t. The latest news is that he now wants the big debate on Thursday night to feature an extended discussion on “the economy.” He’ll likely urge us to “stay the course,” and stick it out. No surprises. No new ideas.
I’ve given Harper a chance to earn his wings, but he keeps spiraling downward with each passing day. I’ll admit, there were moments before the election when I actually started thinking that he wasn’t such a bad leader. I even became numbed to his fishing vests and interesting collection of blue sweaters. Just last week, I even thought “in spite of his flaws, he’s the best-spoken, most organized of the bunch.”
I’ve since come around from that momentary lapse of reason and realized that Harper and his party are a bunch of chameleons that have somehow convinced a historically Liberal country to vote for them. Not only vote for them, but to give them a majority!
I don’t use the word “chameleon” lightly, either. This absolutely blew my mind today when I read it, given the historical significance of the moment: globeandmail.com: Tories admit plagiarism in Harper speech
In terms of an “ABC” campaign, I’ve gone back and forth with deciding who I’ll be supporting. I hate to vote strategically, but, in a country that has yet to adopt much-needed proportional representation, the Liberals represent the most viable way to curb the Conservatives, protect the environment, and bring back the country I know and love.
bonoman
Refugee
I can honestly say I am so dis-interested with this campaign I'm starting to avoid reading or watching tv about it.
The debate is on Thursday, I'll be watching Palin-Biden. Sad, I know.
How in God's name could they schedule the debate on the same night as the VP debate? Why would they not reverse the English and French debates to curb the amount of people tuning them out?
Dion is done. He's horrible! I knew it when he was elected, but hoped it wouldnt be this bad. Preventing Harper a majority is the only hope. If this happens at least we will have the chance of getting a new Liberal leader and going to another election in a few years. Iggy is the only person in this election that has gotten my interest, his speeches are wonderful. Lets vote already and get this over with.
The debate is on Thursday, I'll be watching Palin-Biden. Sad, I know.
How in God's name could they schedule the debate on the same night as the VP debate? Why would they not reverse the English and French debates to curb the amount of people tuning them out?
Dion is done. He's horrible! I knew it when he was elected, but hoped it wouldnt be this bad. Preventing Harper a majority is the only hope. If this happens at least we will have the chance of getting a new Liberal leader and going to another election in a few years. Iggy is the only person in this election that has gotten my interest, his speeches are wonderful. Lets vote already and get this over with.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
Legalising gay marriage brings these weirdos out of the woodwork
Canadian federal candidate: 'Kill gays' - UPI.com
Wonderful.
I think voter turnout is going to be hitting close to record lows this time around. I actually know very few people who will bother to vote.
I myself may actually not vote this time - first time ever, because of registration issues and moving around this year. I am registered at my parents' house where I no longer live, in Toronto, and because of my recent move, my voter card is at their place. Given the amount of hassle I'd have to go through in the next 10 days, and given that it's impossible for me to be there the day of the election, it looks like I'll have to pass this time. Can't say I'm terribly upset.
I think voter turnout is going to be hitting close to record lows this time around. I actually know very few people who will bother to vote.
I myself may actually not vote this time - first time ever, because of registration issues and moving around this year. I am registered at my parents' house where I no longer live, in Toronto, and because of my recent move, my voter card is at their place. Given the amount of hassle I'd have to go through in the next 10 days, and given that it's impossible for me to be there the day of the election, it looks like I'll have to pass this time. Can't say I'm terribly upset.
BoMac
Self-righteous bullshitter
My initial enthusiasm over this campaign has waned considerably and I'll be more interested in the Palin-Biden debate tomorrow night than anything.
Canadians, vote for Stephan Dion's Liberal Party!
This is the first time I am excited to vote for the Liberal Party. Stephane Dion is a man who cares about making Canada face up to its long-term priorities but with compassion and understanding.
I don't trust Michael Ignatieff because he was so ruthlessly willing to throw away the rights of minorities in the name of fighting the war on terror and supported the Iraq War. Paul Martin probably would have taken us to war as well, and Chretien was slightly scummy and is responsible for the sponsorship scandal that brought down the Martin governemnt.
Dion is a breath of fresh air and, if he loses this opportunity, I fear Liberal Party delegates will push for a new leader -- someone not as idealistic and more safe.
I urge people not to vote for the NDP, where the Liberals have a chance, because I don't think Jack Layton will be nearly as good a leader. He also helped the Tories bring down Martin's government for the sake of political gain and there was a CBC report he was in cahoots with our bastard Prime Minister Stephen Harper to exclude the Green Party from the debate.
Unless you're in May's district, potential Greens, let's turn those votes Liberal and have a PM of whom we can be proud!
And now for the scourge of liberty -- that machine politician, Stephen Harper of the Conservatives.
He's been running negative attack ads against Dion that speak to soft-racism on the language issue and the insecure desire in us all for someone strong-fisted. We don't need that and we should have confidence that Dion will make the right call for our environment and on our security needs, including the war on terror and Afghanistan, without violating civil liberties or human rights of "the other". Where Harper relies on Bush-like right-wing US Republican extremism and cliche stances without looking deeper, Dion is a humble, thoughtful, careful man, who will do us justice.
Here are some of Harper's failings:
1. In the Israel's 2006 massacre of Lebanese , he shamelessly supported Israel either in some pathetic attempt to buttress a pro-Israeli Jewish constituency as they have in America or in some thoughtless show of solidarity for right wing fascists the world 'round who decry violence by terrorist organizations but hypocritically support state violence.
Harper fails to recognize that not all terrorist groups are equal -- as McCain and that freakshow Palin fail to understand in their black and white nationalistic view of the world. I don't support Al Qaeda-type groups, but Hezbollah and Hamas arose out of the Israeli occupation, not because "they hate our freedoms" or hate the West or have some colonial vision of subjugating others to Islamic law; they want their land back. They aren't perfect and have surely committed terrible acts, but so have the Israelis. Where the international community welcomed Ariel Sharon, a war criminal, as leader of the Israeli people, Palestinians' democratic choice of Hamas was rejected because they would not refuse the threat of force. Was Sharon ever required to give up Israels arms or the helicopters provided by the US? Was Israel made to give up the land it took or rechannel the water it took or not build a wall up to 6 km into Palestinian territory? No. This is hypocrisy of the highest order. Barack Obama supports these disgusting policies, at least rhetorically, but Stephen Harper never had to. He chose to do so out of the cruelty and racism in his heart.
Secondly, this decision, led by Bush and a reluctant international community, has only made peoples of the Middle East less likely to believe there is a civilized channel to their discontent because recognized institutions haven't work in favor of justice. The moderate government in Lebanon was only weakened by the West's carte blanche to Israel's massacre that killed over 1,000 innocent Lebanese civilians (while Hezbollah responded by killing 100 Israelis, mostly soldiers). Israel holds thousands of people in its jails without evidence of wrongful acts. Hezbollah wanted a prisoner exchange. Instead of encouraging this peaceful act, Harper and others encouraged murder that only destabilized the region. The moderate Lebanese government that was supported by the West was left pleading to stop the bombings and murders among deaf Western government ears. Collateral damage is just as murderous as those killed by any terrorist act. As a result, Lebanese Muslims turned their support to Hezbollah because it was willing to fight back and provide reconstruction. So, on both moral and practical grounds, Stephen Harper has led Canada down the wrong path with his racist war-mongering simplistic view of the world that will only worsen the conflict with Islamic terrorism.
2. On the environment, Harper has backed away from Kyoto. Like Bush before him and Sarah Palin now, he used the pathetic excuse of needing to "study" the matter before opting for the solutions we need. Dion won't stall, but he won't mercilessly force things without consideration for the lives of Canadians. Harper is just more Bush-Palin politics of pretending the problem doesn't exist so corporations can make money. It's hard to do what's right on the environment and I will never accept recycled bathroom tissue, but Dion will bring us progress on this issue. He's an intelligent man who has found this has worked in Europe.
3. On crime, Harper is more willing to have a black or white view that criminalizes those of us who make mistakes -- terrible mistakes, to be sure -- that require a holistic view of how environment affects individual behavior. I am staunchly against the scapegoating of young offenders. Harper is a typical thug, like Bush, who's quick to point the finger, but slow to take responsibility. He's willing to give up a young person who murders so easily, but what did he encourage Israel to do in 2006, what is Canada often doing in Afghanistan. Harper is for legalized murder or murder that's acceptable to some Western powers, but it's based on the same impulse. He's far more murderous than most young offenders, he just channels his brutality in more acceptable ways. He's a hypocrite on crime.
Moreover, on a practical level, solving crime requires long-term work, especially with Canada's minorities and/or economically disadvantaged folks. The poor or poorly raised are more likely to commit violent crime. I don't Canada to become like America. I don't like guns in my country, but we have to resolve this intelligently and humanely because that's the only way to tackle the problem.
4. Safety of Canadians. Remember the head of that nuclear plant that wouldn't allow isotopes to be given out to hospitals around the world? There was good reason for her decision. The plant was unsafe and had to be shut down for inspection/repairs. Harper had her fired for putting the safety of Canadians over the international embarrassment of not having enough isotopes. In doing so, Harper ensures other officials in similar situations won't place the safety of Canadians ahead of short-term interests. Let's not forget about the Listeriosis scandal. Corporations can't be trusted to run amok because they will choose their short-term private interests most of the time; we need strong regulation to protect us.
5. Leadership. Harper tries to come off as confident, but it's really confidence based in knowing he can control others; he has consistently shown a tendency toward fascist tactics and has no group of strong advisors to counterbalance his rule. He's also very controlling in his dealings with the media; he refused the CBC's Peter Mansbridge an interview using the format to which every other candidate has agreed. Is this the kind of leadership we want and need? Dion will listen to Canadians and lead with integrity by making the right choices for all Canadians.
6. The Economy. With a recession coming, is this the time for Conservative-style free market experiments and ruthless ideological notions of "survival of the fittest"? Conservatives have wanted private style health care for a long time and they favor the interests of corporations over those of the poor and working class. The Liberal Party under Dion will ensure that suffering among Canadians is minimized, and won't just watch out for corporations.
On October 14th, vote of civilized, thoughtful, intelligent, progressive change we need. Vote Dion and the Liberal Party of Canada!
This is the first time I am excited to vote for the Liberal Party. Stephane Dion is a man who cares about making Canada face up to its long-term priorities but with compassion and understanding.
I don't trust Michael Ignatieff because he was so ruthlessly willing to throw away the rights of minorities in the name of fighting the war on terror and supported the Iraq War. Paul Martin probably would have taken us to war as well, and Chretien was slightly scummy and is responsible for the sponsorship scandal that brought down the Martin governemnt.
Dion is a breath of fresh air and, if he loses this opportunity, I fear Liberal Party delegates will push for a new leader -- someone not as idealistic and more safe.
I urge people not to vote for the NDP, where the Liberals have a chance, because I don't think Jack Layton will be nearly as good a leader. He also helped the Tories bring down Martin's government for the sake of political gain and there was a CBC report he was in cahoots with our bastard Prime Minister Stephen Harper to exclude the Green Party from the debate.
Unless you're in May's district, potential Greens, let's turn those votes Liberal and have a PM of whom we can be proud!
And now for the scourge of liberty -- that machine politician, Stephen Harper of the Conservatives.
He's been running negative attack ads against Dion that speak to soft-racism on the language issue and the insecure desire in us all for someone strong-fisted. We don't need that and we should have confidence that Dion will make the right call for our environment and on our security needs, including the war on terror and Afghanistan, without violating civil liberties or human rights of "the other". Where Harper relies on Bush-like right-wing US Republican extremism and cliche stances without looking deeper, Dion is a humble, thoughtful, careful man, who will do us justice.
Here are some of Harper's failings:
1. In the Israel's 2006 massacre of Lebanese , he shamelessly supported Israel either in some pathetic attempt to buttress a pro-Israeli Jewish constituency as they have in America or in some thoughtless show of solidarity for right wing fascists the world 'round who decry violence by terrorist organizations but hypocritically support state violence.
Harper fails to recognize that not all terrorist groups are equal -- as McCain and that freakshow Palin fail to understand in their black and white nationalistic view of the world. I don't support Al Qaeda-type groups, but Hezbollah and Hamas arose out of the Israeli occupation, not because "they hate our freedoms" or hate the West or have some colonial vision of subjugating others to Islamic law; they want their land back. They aren't perfect and have surely committed terrible acts, but so have the Israelis. Where the international community welcomed Ariel Sharon, a war criminal, as leader of the Israeli people, Palestinians' democratic choice of Hamas was rejected because they would not refuse the threat of force. Was Sharon ever required to give up Israels arms or the helicopters provided by the US? Was Israel made to give up the land it took or rechannel the water it took or not build a wall up to 6 km into Palestinian territory? No. This is hypocrisy of the highest order. Barack Obama supports these disgusting policies, at least rhetorically, but Stephen Harper never had to. He chose to do so out of the cruelty and racism in his heart.
Secondly, this decision, led by Bush and a reluctant international community, has only made peoples of the Middle East less likely to believe there is a civilized channel to their discontent because recognized institutions haven't work in favor of justice. The moderate government in Lebanon was only weakened by the West's carte blanche to Israel's massacre that killed over 1,000 innocent Lebanese civilians (while Hezbollah responded by killing 100 Israelis, mostly soldiers). Israel holds thousands of people in its jails without evidence of wrongful acts. Hezbollah wanted a prisoner exchange. Instead of encouraging this peaceful act, Harper and others encouraged murder that only destabilized the region. The moderate Lebanese government that was supported by the West was left pleading to stop the bombings and murders among deaf Western government ears. Collateral damage is just as murderous as those killed by any terrorist act. As a result, Lebanese Muslims turned their support to Hezbollah because it was willing to fight back and provide reconstruction. So, on both moral and practical grounds, Stephen Harper has led Canada down the wrong path with his racist war-mongering simplistic view of the world that will only worsen the conflict with Islamic terrorism.
2. On the environment, Harper has backed away from Kyoto. Like Bush before him and Sarah Palin now, he used the pathetic excuse of needing to "study" the matter before opting for the solutions we need. Dion won't stall, but he won't mercilessly force things without consideration for the lives of Canadians. Harper is just more Bush-Palin politics of pretending the problem doesn't exist so corporations can make money. It's hard to do what's right on the environment and I will never accept recycled bathroom tissue, but Dion will bring us progress on this issue. He's an intelligent man who has found this has worked in Europe.
3. On crime, Harper is more willing to have a black or white view that criminalizes those of us who make mistakes -- terrible mistakes, to be sure -- that require a holistic view of how environment affects individual behavior. I am staunchly against the scapegoating of young offenders. Harper is a typical thug, like Bush, who's quick to point the finger, but slow to take responsibility. He's willing to give up a young person who murders so easily, but what did he encourage Israel to do in 2006, what is Canada often doing in Afghanistan. Harper is for legalized murder or murder that's acceptable to some Western powers, but it's based on the same impulse. He's far more murderous than most young offenders, he just channels his brutality in more acceptable ways. He's a hypocrite on crime.
Moreover, on a practical level, solving crime requires long-term work, especially with Canada's minorities and/or economically disadvantaged folks. The poor or poorly raised are more likely to commit violent crime. I don't Canada to become like America. I don't like guns in my country, but we have to resolve this intelligently and humanely because that's the only way to tackle the problem.
4. Safety of Canadians. Remember the head of that nuclear plant that wouldn't allow isotopes to be given out to hospitals around the world? There was good reason for her decision. The plant was unsafe and had to be shut down for inspection/repairs. Harper had her fired for putting the safety of Canadians over the international embarrassment of not having enough isotopes. In doing so, Harper ensures other officials in similar situations won't place the safety of Canadians ahead of short-term interests. Let's not forget about the Listeriosis scandal. Corporations can't be trusted to run amok because they will choose their short-term private interests most of the time; we need strong regulation to protect us.
5. Leadership. Harper tries to come off as confident, but it's really confidence based in knowing he can control others; he has consistently shown a tendency toward fascist tactics and has no group of strong advisors to counterbalance his rule. He's also very controlling in his dealings with the media; he refused the CBC's Peter Mansbridge an interview using the format to which every other candidate has agreed. Is this the kind of leadership we want and need? Dion will listen to Canadians and lead with integrity by making the right choices for all Canadians.
6. The Economy. With a recession coming, is this the time for Conservative-style free market experiments and ruthless ideological notions of "survival of the fittest"? Conservatives have wanted private style health care for a long time and they favor the interests of corporations over those of the poor and working class. The Liberal Party under Dion will ensure that suffering among Canadians is minimized, and won't just watch out for corporations.
On October 14th, vote of civilized, thoughtful, intelligent, progressive change we need. Vote Dion and the Liberal Party of Canada!
BoMac
Self-righteous bullshitter
We have a Canadian election thread already. Answer me this: what do you think is the percentage of people who actually read your novels on all of the message boards you post in?
Harry Vest
Refugee
He's right. Although I belong to no political party and wish that more INDEPENDENTS actually ran for office. Dion seems like a good person. Probably too good for politics (what a sorry state politics is in). I live in an area where the Liberal candidate always seems to win. We cannot risk giving the Conservatives a majority - that is the only real danger of this election. A minority would be fine - no matter who runs it. In fact I believe everybody is better off with any kind of a minority government - no total power to any party. Having said that, here's one statement that should make everyone think twice about voting for Stephen Harper...IF STEPHEN HARPER HAD HIS WAY CANADA WOULD BE IN IRAQ AND WOULD HAVE BEEN SINCE 2003!!!!!!!!
That alone should make everybody vote against this guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That alone should make everybody vote against this guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ladywithspinninghead
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
As for us being in Iraq had Harper been the leader in '03, a few party leaders brought up that point during the French debate tonight.
Did anyone watch it? I caught the last 45 mins - it was pretty civil. Harper remained pretty calm and unrattled despite being on the defensive most of the night.
Dion did quite well - if only his English was as good as his French.
Did anyone watch it? I caught the last 45 mins - it was pretty civil. Harper remained pretty calm and unrattled despite being on the defensive most of the night.
Dion did quite well - if only his English was as good as his French.
angelordevil
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Really? I'll bet you $10 (Canadian) that you change your mind.
Should be entertaining tomorrow, if tonight is anything to go by. Palin-Diden...uhhh. Can she really debate? I guess that will be an entertaining element, in itself. For the first time in Canadian election debate history...tables instead of podiums!
I also thought Dion was pretty impressive tonight. Finally, he seemed well-versed and prepared in detailing exactly what the Liberal plan is...but, it was in French. Hopefully some of that articulation can filter over to tomorrow. He's a little goofy and English-challenged, but he's also endearing, sincere and passionate. Ultimately, I do think he's prime minister material...he's just not what we've become accustomed to...in the cardboard cutout vein.
I thought May's comments about Harper's "charming" kids were hilarious. I'm glad she was there...she should be an even bigger presence in English.
bonoman
Refugee
Now I know I am a politics loser.
I watched the French debates. It was hard to really get the full breadth of what they were trying to say but was a wake up call for me.
If you take that debate as an example, and compare it to the US debates, its totally different.
The leaders look at eachother, they actually debate issues. They use far less talking points and attack, respectfully, eachothers view points. The best part of the debate was when they were asked to say something nice about the person sitting next to them. Some of them gave real honest answers, and they looked at eachother, engaged eachother. Such a difference from the American debates, and a breath of fresh air.
I thought Layton did a good job, very vocal and to the point. He's the best looking leader when he's debating, confident and on message. Tonight is going to be interesting, I might watch our debate then wait for CNN to replay the VP debate. The englsih language is going to be a great debate, Layton will really come out swinging, Harper should be a bit more on the offensive this debate as well. May really hit Harper hard, she really is bad for Conservatives in this deabte because she causes left leaning Canadians to rethink him and vote NDP or Lib to block him.
This has picqued my interest a bit. Finally.
I watched the French debates. It was hard to really get the full breadth of what they were trying to say but was a wake up call for me.
If you take that debate as an example, and compare it to the US debates, its totally different.
The leaders look at eachother, they actually debate issues. They use far less talking points and attack, respectfully, eachothers view points. The best part of the debate was when they were asked to say something nice about the person sitting next to them. Some of them gave real honest answers, and they looked at eachother, engaged eachother. Such a difference from the American debates, and a breath of fresh air.
I thought Layton did a good job, very vocal and to the point. He's the best looking leader when he's debating, confident and on message. Tonight is going to be interesting, I might watch our debate then wait for CNN to replay the VP debate. The englsih language is going to be a great debate, Layton will really come out swinging, Harper should be a bit more on the offensive this debate as well. May really hit Harper hard, she really is bad for Conservatives in this deabte because she causes left leaning Canadians to rethink him and vote NDP or Lib to block him.
This has picqued my interest a bit. Finally.
yolland
Forum Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2004
- Messages
- 7,471
God help you if it weren't though, you know?
How common is it for native-English-speaking Canadians to be sufficiently fluent in French to follow a debate in it? And are your politicians all expected to be fluent in both languages?
bonoman
Refugee
God help you if it weren't though, you know?
How common is it for native-English-speaking Canadians to be sufficiently fluent in French to follow a debate in it? And are your politicians all expected to be fluent in both languages?
Well the debates were on CBC last night dubed in English. Thats why I'm a loser, I watched a dubed debate!
Yes our Leaders of their respective parties pretty much need to speak english. If they did'nt they'd get wasted in Quebec. Elisabeth May can't speak French to well but she could get by. It's nearly a guarentee you need to speak French to be Prime Minister, not so much to be a Member of Paliment.
angelordevil
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Harper is pulling a Mulroney. 
angelordevil
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Elizabeth May is impressing...
angelordevil
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
The debate table resembles a tiny Air Canada Centre.
*crickets*
*crickets*
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