Camera Crew and Civilians mistaken for insurgents - Wikileaks Guncamera video - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-05-2010, 09:40 PM   #1
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 11:02 AM
Camera Crew and Civilians mistaken for insurgents - Wikileaks Guncamera video

I was debating whether or not to post this video. Its a recently leaked gun camera video of US Apache pilots falsely identifying a Reuters camera crew as insurgents and firing on them. Apparently cameras and tripods look enough like AK-47s and RPGs to warrant engagement. After the camera crew is hit, a van containing civilian men and children pulls up to help the wounded. They too are fired upon. Later in the video, a building is demolished by hellfire missiles with complete disregard for the innocent bystanders walking along the street. They were surely killed too. I hesitate in judging the soldiers overseas as I'm sure being in a constant state of heightened anxiety brings with it a lot of emotional and mental baggage. But the cavalier manner in which the pilots appear to be conducting themselves seems incredibly irresponsible. How can a firearm be positively ID'd at that range? Obviously it cant or else this would never have happened. If I'm not mistaken, there are one or two on these boards that have served overseas. What are your thoughts? Again, I'm trying very hard not to judge, but its incredibly difficult.
The video is very graphic, so use your own digression. Its also 40 minutes long. I was able to watch the entire thing as I found it fascinating. If you dont want to watch the whole thing, most of what you need to see is in the first 5 minutes. I dont know what kind of discussion this is supposed to raise, but I think its important to see, even if there isnt much discussion at all



And a report from 2007 with some key differences in regard to what was claimed and what is seen in the new video

http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...en_in_baghdad/
__________________

__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2010, 11:41 PM   #2
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 10:02 AM
I think this is one of the dangers of "disengaged" combat.

No one would have supported this war if it was a "fair match" gun vs gun.
__________________

__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 09:50 AM   #3
Blue Crack Addict
 
The Sad Punk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: VEGA INTL NITE SKOOL
Posts: 28,691
Local Time: 01:32 AM
"Oh yeah, look at those dead bastards."
"Nice."
__________________
The Sad Punk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 11:28 AM   #4
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Stateless
Posts: 56,460
Local Time: 11:02 AM
this is a tragic accident, yes.

but let's get the facts right... it's not as if these two guys were walking down the street alone with just their camera. they were imbeded in a group of insurgents. the people around these two were carrying AK-47's and RPG's. the RPG could take the blackhawk out. they saw a threat, they acted.

would you prefer that they wait and allow the humvees to be ambushed, or for the guy with the RPG to attack the helicopters first?

cops face the same issue... they see what they feel is a threat, and they must react quickly, in the moment, to the best of their abilities. all we can do is hope that they make the right decisions. in this case they probably did, but there was no way in knowing that the news crew was also there.

war, cliche's aside, is hell. an embdeded camera crew, be they embdeded within insurgents or american troops, know full well that they are putting their lives on the line to get the story.


as for what the troops are saying... i have no real defense for that other than to say that i'm sure every one of us has said things while doing our jobs that if the general public knew we would be embarassed.

i'm not going to judge these soldiers for not being politicaly correct in what they say in the heat of battle. god knows they have to deal with this shit on a never ending basis. post traumatic stress syndrome is rampant in the military. if making it seem a little less real is their way of disassociating themselves from just how real it is, makes it easier for them to do the job? so be it.
__________________
Headache in a Suitcase is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 03:22 PM   #5
Refugee
 
The_Pac_Mule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,342
Local Time: 11:02 AM
Totally agree with Headache. Those reporters were aware of the risks, and not just from the insurgents.
__________________
The_Pac_Mule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 03:54 PM   #6
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Stateless
Posts: 56,460
Local Time: 11:02 AM
did you also notice that i spelled embedded both with an e and an i because i was too lazy to spell check?
__________________
Headache in a Suitcase is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 04:33 PM   #7
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
this is a tragic accident, yes.

but let's get the facts right... it's not as if these two guys were walking down the street alone with just their camera. they were imbeded in a group of insurgents. the people around these two were carrying AK-47's and RPG's. the RPG could take the blackhawk out. they saw a threat, they acted.


Are you sure about that? Do you really want to get the facts right?

there are reports that the RPG was camera eqiptment,

Quote:
According to U.S. officials, the pilots arrived at the scene to find a group of men approaching the fight with what looked to be AK-47s slung over their shoulders and at least one rocket-propelled grenade.

A military investigation later concluded that what was thought to be an RPG was really a long-range photography lens; likewise, the camera looked like an AK-47.
Video depicting killing by U.S. troops in Iraq is real, official says - latimes.com



and it is easy to distance ourselves from this, because afterall they are just Iraqis, who gives a shit?

but when the Federal Gov kills some gun nuts here, Ruby Ridge, because they are being fired on, we are supposed to be up in arms over Americans being killed?
__________________
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 05:36 PM   #8
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
but let's get the facts right... it's not as if these two guys were walking down the street alone with just their camera. they were imbeded in a group of insurgents. the people around these two were carrying AK-47's and RPG's. the RPG could take the blackhawk out. they saw a threat, they acted.
Where are you getting this from? From the video?
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 06:07 PM   #9
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
this is a tragic accident, yes.

but let's get the facts right... it's not as if these two guys were walking down the street alone with just their camera. they were imbeded in a group of insurgents. the people around these two were carrying AK-47's and RPG's. the RPG could take the blackhawk out. they saw a threat, they acted.
First of all, that's debatable.

Second, it has little to do with them firing on civilians in the van which contained children. Those civilians who were collecting bodies have international law protections. That part of the video is horrific and in fact the soldiers on the video clearly state that they see NO weapons.

Quote:
i'm not going to judge these soldiers for not being politicaly correct in what they say in the heat of battle. god knows they have to deal with this shit on a never ending basis. post traumatic stress syndrome is rampant in the military. if making it seem a little less real is their way of disassociating themselves from just how real it is, makes it easier for them to do the job? so be it.
As a civilian who was on the other end of the deal, I can't even wrap my mind around this. A soldier who says the following in response to almost mortally wounding two children:

Quote:
"Well it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle."
has lost his humanity and I don't care if this makes his job easier. It's criminal.

War has innocents, they are the civilians, they are the children. And it is where my sympathies largely lie.
__________________
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 06:21 PM   #10
Refugee
 
The_Pac_Mule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,342
Local Time: 11:02 AM
Quote:
Are you sure about that? Do you really want to get the facts right?

there are reports that the RPG was camera eqiptment,
I think he was referring to the other insurgents. At any rate, that camera REALLY looked like an RPG, and I doubt that those onboard the helicopter wanted to wait and find out.

Quote:
Second, it has little to do with them firing on civilians in the van which contained children. Those civilians who were collecting bodies have international law protections. That part of the video is horrific and in fact the soldiers on the video clearly state that they see NO weapons.
They were under the belief that the people they fired upon were insurgents. Insurgents tend to run off taking their dead with them to disguise the amount killed. To the helicopter gunner, they were just more insurgents. There was no way to know there was kids inside.

Quote:
As a civilian who was on the other end of the deal, I can't even wrap my mind around this. A soldier who says the following in response to almost mortally wounding two children:


Quote:
"Well it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle."

has lost his humanity and I don't care if this makes his job easier. It's criminal.
Honestly, what do you expect them to say?
__________________
The_Pac_Mule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 06:31 PM   #11
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
I think he was referring to the other insurgents. At any rate, that camera REALLY looked like an RPG, and I doubt that those onboard the helicopter wanted to wait and find out.



They were under the belief that the people they fired upon were insurgents. Insurgents tend to run off taking their dead with them to disguise the amount killed. To the helicopter gunner, they were just more insurgents. There was no way to know there was kids inside.



Honestly, what do you expect them to say?
If your father or brother was in the alley behind your house repairing a fence and was blown away by a Policeman,

would you say, "Oh well, he had a hammer in his hand, the Policeman thought it was a gun, was he supposed to wait until he was shot?"
__________________
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 06:36 PM   #12
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post


Honestly, what do you expect them to say?
Not that. Obviously.
__________________
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 06:41 PM   #13
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
I think he was referring to the other insurgents. At any rate, that camera REALLY looked like an RPG, and I doubt that those onboard the helicopter wanted to wait and find out.



They were under the belief that the people they fired upon were insurgents. Insurgents tend to run off taking their dead with them to disguise the amount killed. To the helicopter gunner, they were just more insurgents. There was no way to know there was kids inside.
Really? This is all you have to say?

Cameras look like weapons, they thought they were bad guys so shooting people who were just walking the streets is OK

I gurantee you if the roles were reversed you would be livid.
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 07:32 PM   #14
Refugee
 
The_Pac_Mule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,342
Local Time: 11:02 AM
Quote:
Not that. Obviously.
Once again, being under the impression that they were firing at insurgents, they were also under the impression that these were their kids (Or at least wanted to believe that). It certainly not a shock for an insurgent to use human shields.

Quote:
Cameras look like weapons, they thought they were bad guys so shooting
people who were just walking the streets is OK
There were insurgent attacks in that area just shortly before, and the gunship was called in to look for them. If you want to push for better training in distinguising the difference between RPGs and camera lenses thats fine with me. But you'd never truly understand what it was like being in the position they were in. They made a mistake, but shit happens in war and everyone just has to deal with it, I know that sounds cold but that's the way it is. There has NEVER been a war fought where things like this didn't happen. They shouldn't be crucified for it, they already have to bear the burden of this in their mind.
__________________
The_Pac_Mule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 07:50 PM   #15
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 11:02 AM
While I think the pilots' language is harsh, I cant bring myself to condemn them for it. Part of their job is to find people and to kill them. If they were to think about each and every family of each and every person they've ever killed, I doubt they, or anyone else in their position, would be able to deal with it. There has to be some serious emotional detachment from their actions. Its a coping mechanism and if it helps them sleep at night, I see no harm in it. The problems arise when that nonchalant attitude bleeds over to affecting the way in which they take action. That seems to be at least partly to blame here. Perhaps its impossible to not have one eventually affect the other
__________________

__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com