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Old 04-06-2010, 07:56 PM   #16
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While I think the pilots' language is harsh, I cant bring myself to condemn them for it. Part of their job is to find people and to kill them. If they were to think about each and every family of each and every person they've ever killed, I doubt they, or anyone else in their position, would be able to deal with it. There has to be some serious emotional detachment from their actions. Its a coping mechanism and if it helps them sleep at night, I see no harm in it.
A lot of people don't understand that.

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The problems arise when that nonchalant attitude bleeds over to affecting the way in which they take action. That seems to be at least partly to blame here.
That, and these people being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Didn't the helicopter pilot say they were taking small arms fire at one point before they opened up?
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Old 04-06-2010, 08:15 PM   #17
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There were insurgent attacks in that area just shortly before, and the gunship was called in to look for them. If you want to push for better training in distinguising the difference between RPGs and camera lenses thats fine with me. But you'd never truly understand what it was like being in the position they were in. They made a mistake, but shit happens in war and everyone just has to deal with it, I know that sounds cold but that's the way it is. There has NEVER been a war fought where things like this didn't happen. They shouldn't be crucified for it, they already have to bear the burden of this in their mind.
It's beyond cold, but that's another matter.

No one wants to crucify anyone, have you seen that in here?

Just a taking of responsibility and the military learning from it's huge mistakes.
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Old 04-06-2010, 08:25 PM   #18
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It's beyond cold, but that's another matter.
The whole concept and idea of warfare is beyone cold. Massive amount of innocent civilians were killed by the Allies in WWII, but to put it bluntly, everyone just has to deal with things that happen in war.

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No one wants to crucify anyone, have you seen that in here?
It sounds like that from a lot of people, not nessicarily on this board but still...

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Just a taking of responsibility and the military learning from it's huge mistakes.
Something I'd like to see more of as well
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Old 04-06-2010, 08:47 PM   #19
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everyone just has to deal with things that happen in war.
Some would say that about the loss you or I may have had in 9/11.

Or they could have thought about going into the war in the first place.
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Old 04-06-2010, 09:57 PM   #20
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The whole concept and idea of warfare is beyone cold. Massive amount of innocent civilians were killed by the Allies in WWII, but to put it bluntly, everyone just has to deal with things that happen in war.
I think that is very easy for you to say, because you live in a country where your women and children aren't being killed in the streets and you haven't experienced war outside of your front door like many, many other people around the world.

And I don't fault you at all for your inability to understand just how difficult it is to "deal with things" that happen in war. It takes every shred of your humanity and then some. And for some people "dealing" with things might equal strapping on a suicide belt and blowing something up, which we then scratch our heads shocked that such cold bloodedness exists.

This war was wrong and a totally ill-conceived idea from the outset. It is wholly unsurprising to have events like this happen.
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:43 PM   #21
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:31 AM   #22
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Are you sure about that? Do you really want to get the facts right?

there are reports that the RPG was camera eqiptment,

Video depicting killing by U.S. troops in Iraq is real, official says - latimes.com



and it is easy to distance ourselves from this, because afterall they are just Iraqis, who gives a shit?

but when the Federal Gov kills some gun nuts here, Ruby Ridge, because they are being fired on, we are supposed to be up in arms over Americans being killed?

well... i for one wasn't up in arms over ruby ridge at all.



there have been numerous reports about this issue and it's easy to get things confused... most of the original reports that came out said that people in the group did have weapons. now reports are coming out that they didn't... ok, fine. i know this, i looked at that video and i saw what i thought were AK47's and RPG's.

if there really weren't any in the group then it just makes it an even more tragic accident. nothing more.
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:55 AM   #23
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if there really weren't any in the group then it just makes it an even more tragic accident.
That could have been easily avoided.
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Old 04-07-2010, 10:39 AM   #24
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That could have been easily avoided.
it's very easy to say that in hindsight. when a wrong decision means that you and your entire crew will die, it's a tad tougher to make that decision within a matter of minutes.

i know this... i see that video, i see what looks like an RPG.

put yourself in the middle of a war zone with known insurgents in the area, and you come across a group with what appears to be weaponry, including an RPG.

you gonna sit back and wait to find out?
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Old 04-07-2010, 11:02 AM   #25
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it's very easy to say that in hindsight. when a wrong decision means that you and your entire crew will die, it's a tad tougher to make that decision within a matter of minutes.

i know this... i see that video, i see what looks like an RPG.

put yourself in the middle of a war zone with known insurgents in the area, and you come across a group with what appears to be weaponry, including an RPG.

you gonna sit back and wait to find out?
I understand what you are saying, and of course hindsight it's easier to see things, but that being said, the cameras were not being aimed at them. This was not an imminent threat where decisions had to be made in seconds. There's not even a sound of ungrency in the gunmen's voice.

Once again I can't put myself in their shoes, but it was obvious to me that they were cameras. The one lens I can see might be misconstrued, but this really comes down to training. If you're going to allow technology to disengage you somewhat from the battlefield, then also allow for the training to best utilize the technology. Those things have wicked zoom, they could have easily identified the objects as not being weapons.
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Old 04-07-2010, 12:17 PM   #26
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Who cares about the RPG? I understand that, it looked like a weapon. That's not the disturbing part of the video, to me.

They fired on a van simply because they picked up an injured guy on the street. They sounded like eager teenagers playing fucking Modern Warfare.
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:29 PM   #27
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it's very easy to say that in hindsight. when a wrong decision means that you and your entire crew will die, it's a tad tougher to make that decision within a matter of minutes.
So then you're saying that the soldiers have more rights than the civilians? What if it was a police officer who killed a man with a camera? Would you still be defending him? I'd say by virtue of being a soldier, its their responsibility to be sure they know they are engaging justly. They're in an urban environment. There are innocent civilians everywhere. Nobody forced these men to become soldiers. Its an amazing sacrifice that they're making, but they need to take on the greater responsibility that comes with it. They need to protect themselves, but they also need to protect the innocent. If you go a little further in the video, you'll see what I think is an even greater example of gross disregard for human life when they destroy the building along with all the bystanders on the street (34:30)
A man who they thought was carrying an AK-47 enters a building. Am I wrong in thinking that you then send a crew of soldiers in to get him rather than just blow up the building along with everyone else in and around it? I understand that its dangerous, but I would say that's part and parcel of what you signed up for
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Old 04-07-2010, 05:19 PM   #28
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So then you're saying that the soldiers have more rights than the civilians? What if it was a police officer who killed a man with a camera? Would you still be defending him? I'd say by virtue of being a soldier, its their responsibility to be sure they know they are engaging justly. They're in an urban environment. There are innocent civilians everywhere. Nobody forced these men to become soldiers. Its an amazing sacrifice that they're making, but they need to take on the greater responsibility that comes with it. They need to protect themselves, but they also need to protect the innocent. If you go a little further in the video, you'll see what I think is an even greater example of gross disregard for human life when they destroy the building along with all the bystanders on the street (34:30)
A man who they thought was carrying an AK-47 enters a building. Am I wrong in thinking that you then send a crew of soldiers in to get him rather than just blow up the building along with everyone else in and around it? I understand that its dangerous, but I would say that's part and parcel of what you signed up for

i'm going to just agree to disagree, but as for your police officer argument, i would judge it on the merit of the situation...

and more simply, yes... i have defended police officers on this site in the past in controversial shootings. i specificaly remember a debate about a guy who was shot who was holding a comb... when officers were called to a situation of a man with a gun, who were threatened by the man, who said he had a gun, who proceded to point a long object under his jacket at the officers, who was shot dead... and upon inspection, it was a comb.

yes... i defended the actions of those officers.


as for your "nobody forced them to become soldiers" line... nobody forced anyone to be a reporter in a war zone.
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Old 04-07-2010, 05:55 PM   #29
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I would agree with you on the situation you cited, but I'd hardly call that man innocent. The situations would be more analogous if the police were called to an area where a man with a gun had been seen, saw an innocent man carrying a comb, and killed him because they thought it was the gunman. Not very defendable

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as for your "nobody forced them to become soldiers" line... nobody forced anyone to be a reporter in a war zone.
What about the man walking the street who got blown to smithereens?
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Old 04-07-2010, 06:55 PM   #30
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What about the man walking the street who got blown to smithereens?

He was in a fuckin WAR ZONE !!!

we have young Americans over there killing bad guys and anyone that is stupid enough to be mistaken for bad guys, Americans spilling their blood for these ingrates

these young heroes could be back home playing video games and taking out student loans they will never pay back

instead they are in the country of Iraq, and basically the whole place is a hot war zone.
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