california dreaming - guardian 4.10.09 - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-05-2009, 10:13 AM   #31
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Zoomerang96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: canada
Posts: 13,459
Local Time: 04:46 PM
agreed. i'm curious to know what the core issues are, instead of conservative v liberal mudslinging.

wow, that made me sound like a politician, didn't it?
__________________

__________________
Zoomerang96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 10:57 AM   #32
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,488
Local Time: 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
This is a rather Captain Obvious point, but considering that CA had by far the worst housing bubble in the US, it's unsurprising that they fell particularly hard when the crisis hit.


there's that unfettered, unregulated, yee-haw cowboy capitalism for you.

the road to ruin, every time.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 10:59 AM   #33
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,488
Local Time: 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomerang96 View Post
if all these things make it so great, and indeed i'd certainly agree on most of them, then why is it in so much trouble?


the economic conservatives in Orange County and the housing bubble. and their demand to slash taxes.

as ever, it's the conservatives. they're busy screaming about Roman Polanski while the hills north of Hollywood burn.



sorry, i guess this isn't what you were looking for. i'll let a californian answer.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 12:08 PM   #34
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
we are not abandoning green energy. The goal of 20% being produced by those sources still stands, and is set to increase. We can actually do both, consider nuclear power and green energy. It's called energy mix.
But at what cost? Haven't your electricity rates skyrocketed under your "feed-in tariff" that guarantees green energy producers a price 7 times higher than that traditional energy producers get on the market? Am I close?
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 12:27 PM   #35
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,678
Local Time: 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomerang96 View Post
is that the best you can do with what he said?

it is extremely narrow-minded to think that what he said is outrightly dismissable. though, to your credit/defence, his POV was poorly put. the essence of his pov, however, is very important if his numbers are even 5 miles from the ballpark.
His numbers aren't even close, so how else is one to take them except for pure xenophobia? He's the one that called it an "uncomfortable fact". Why would the ethnic make up of his child's kindergarten class be of such concern? I live in a city that's majority hispanic and we're thriving, so what is his concern? You tell me.
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 12:29 PM   #36
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,678
Local Time: 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
But at what cost? Haven't your electricity rates skyrocketed under your "feed-in tariff" that guarantees green energy producers a price 7 times higher than that traditional energy producers get on the market? Am I close?
Where did you get these numbers?
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 12:30 PM   #37
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 11:46 PM
Our energy prices have gotten a lot higher, but that wasn't caused by green energy alternatives. Our main problem is that we are such an intelligent bunch that we let Russia became virtually the monopoly supplier of gas. And the gas price is tied to the oil price. Their reasoning is, since gas comes from the same source as oil their prices should be the same as well.
Add to that, that the liberalisation of markets still left us with an oligopoly. Even though they are regulated, they are very quick at raising prices, but very slow at lowering. And regulation is too weak to really force them to go down with prices in real-time.
Also, renewable energies would be competitive even without these forms of subsidies. Except for solar power here in Germany. That is only feasible in some parts of the country. Big producers are already jumping on to the train of green energies, and the markets are succeeding. But of course they also like to stick to nuclear and coal power. It should be considered that every coal worker in Germany is subsidised 1.5 times of the revenue he generates. We continue to destroy huge parts of our country until 2018 for a very expensive energy source, even though the majority is already imported from the US and Australia.

As long as the prices don't spiral out of control and even low-income groups can afford them I don't even see a problem in higher energy prices. It reduces wasting energy more than any campaign could achieve.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 12:42 PM   #38
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,678
Local Time: 04:46 PM
I know here in TX our energy prices have gone up slighty where I live except where they are going more green, go figure.

And in West TX where wind is really picking up energy prices are dropping.
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 01:08 PM   #39
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
Also, renewable energies would be competitive even without these forms of subsidies.
At a certain price they would be everywhere, but if that price is achieved by not drilling for oil, building nuclear or coal power plants or implementing dopey Cap & Trade scheemes, I don't think that makes much economical sense and is in reality a de facto subsidy.
Quote:
Big producers are already jumping on to the train of green energies, and the markets are succeeding. But of course they also like to stick to nuclear and coal power.
Well they have to because renewable energy is both inefficient and highly unreliable making it unsuitable for baseload-grid use thus requiring a conventional energy source backup at all times.
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 01:20 PM   #40
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 10:46 PM
CA troubles include a certain number of CA-specific issues, including: a divided state legislature, complete with a state constitution that makes ratifying any budget almost impossible; short term plans for state revenue (boosts in sales taxes, bond buying and selling, etc) at the expense of long term strategy; and immigration issues that affect everything from payroll taxes to health care. While the film industry is just one among many industries that have taken root in CA, the affect of runaway production on the local economy is also significant, as it affects employment, tax revenue, etc.

At the same time, CA is also being hit hard by the same economic issues ravaging the country (three other states in the country are also faced with massive unemployment). With the eighth largest economy in the world, it's no surprise that CA is going to be hit inordinately hard by the recession. The question is, who will lead us out.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 01:27 PM   #41
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Tiger Edge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Everglades
Posts: 4,740
Local Time: 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
The question is, who will lead us out.


GET TO THE CHOPPA
__________________
Tiger Edge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 01:29 PM   #42
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,678
Local Time: 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
The question is, who will lead us out.
Have you lost faith?

__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 02:20 PM   #43
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,488
Local Time: 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Edge View Post


GET TO THE CHOPPA



__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 03:53 PM   #44
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
At a certain price they would be everywhere, but if that price is achieved by not drilling for oil, building nuclear or coal power plants or implementing dopey Cap & Trade scheemes, I don't think that makes much economical sense and is in reality a de facto subsidy.

Well they have to because renewable energy is both inefficient and highly unreliable making it unsuitable for baseload-grid use thus requiring a conventional energy source backup at all times.
Well, I guess we have fundamental differences in our economical philosophy there. While for you pretty much any government meddling with the markets is an unjustified intervention, I don't always oppose the state using its powers in order to allocate resources and steering the economy towards a sustainable use of those resources, or to influence their demand by driving up or down the respective prices.
Also, Germany has almost no oil resources and the few we have wouldn't satisfy demand at all if left with those alone. Same with coal. So if we didn't promote the use of the resources we have, wind, water, biogas and a little sun, we would be perfectly independent of those countries in possession of such. Same with uranium.
For me there are a few other factors as well. If I didn't care about future generations, I would say, "Screw that green energy and use up the oil". If I didn't believe in climate change I would say, "Screw those windmills and let's take our chances with that damn global warming." Which for me, by the way, is no question of believing, and I don't really want to sit here in 40 years and say "Boo! You were wrong!" or "Yes, you were right."
If I didn't care that those resources were limited I wouldn't care for renewables either.
From an economical standpoint, of course nothing ever makes sense that prevents one from maximising his profit at the cost of future. But only if you follow the economic philosophy that there is no tomorrow. Or that climate change doesn't matter as long as we don't have waterproof evidence that it exists. I think, if we left resource allocation to the markets alone, we would just go through all those resources in the shortest amount of time, and our grandchildren would be very thankful for that.

Efficiency of renewables is increasing. And that's not a great argument. Every new technology lacks in efficiency. And some old technologies as well. A coal-power plant still has an efficiency level of about 35 percent. Nuclear power plants not much better. A conventional light-bulb emits about 95 to 98 percent heat.
We know that those forms of power generation are not always available. But we also aim for just 20 percent by 2020. Not 100 percent. And some other forms are, like water power or biogas. And we are still at the beginning of having figured out how to store energy.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 04:32 PM   #45
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 04:46 PM
You certainly make some good points V V in regards to natural resources. That certainly would affect energy policies and would vary from country to country. And new technologies will become more efficient with time.
__________________

__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Zzyzx (Buy a vowel!), California Superthread Reggo Lemonade Stand Archive 1008 08-01-2008 01:49 AM
Rate my album collection. shart1780 Lemonade Stand Archive 75 02-14-2008 12:07 AM
The Toll Grows Higher Dreadsox Free Your Mind Archive 333 08-13-2005 11:09 AM
Bono was wrong! xrayjohn General Tour Discussions 26 05-23-2005 05:34 AM
The California NAACP does not speak for us Dreadsox Free Your Mind Archive 28 04-21-2005 05:02 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com