PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
I am not a fan of the implication that civil rights should be determined by how polite the minority group in question is when pleading its case.
Biblical illiteracy and misstating the application of Old Testament laws is one thing, calling it "Bullshit" is quite another.
I would like to apologize for describing that walk out as a pansy-assed move. I wasn't calling the handful of students who left pansies (2800+ students, most of them Christian, stayed and listened), just the walk-out itself. But that's a distinction without a difference—kinda like when religious conservatives tells their gay friends that they "love the sinner, hate the sin." They're often shocked when their gay friends get upset because, hey, they were making a distinction between the person (lovable!) and the person's actions (not so much!). But gay people feel insulted by "love the sinner, hate the sin" because it is insulting. Likewise, my use of "pansy-assed" was insulting, it was name-calling, and it was wrong. And I apologize for saying it.
As for what I said about the Bible...
A smart Christian friend involved politics writes: "In America today you just can't refer, even tangentially, to someone's religion as 'bullshit.' You should apologize for using that word."
I didn't call anyone's religion bullshit. I did say that there is bullshit—"untrue words or ideas"—in the Bible. That is being spun as an attack on Christianity. Which is bullshhh… which is untrue. I was not attacking the faith in which I was raised. I was attacking the argument that gay people must be discriminated against—and anti-bullying programs that address anti-gay bullying should be blocked (or exceptions should be made for bullying "motivated by faith")—because it says right there in the Bible that being gay is wrong. Yet the same people who make that claim choose to ignore what the Bible has to say about a great deal else. I did not attack Christianity. I attacked hypocrisy. My remarks can only be read as an attack on all Christians if you believe that all Christians are hypocrites. Which I don't believe.
On other occasions I've made the same point without using the word bullshit:
"We can learn to ignore what the bible says about gay people the same way we have learned to ignore what the Bible says about clams and figs and farming and personal grooming and menstruation and masturbation and divorce and virginity and adultery and slavery. Let's take slavery. We ignore what the Bible says about slavery in both the Old and New Testaments. And the authors of the Bible didn't just fail to condemn slavery. They endorsed slavery: 'Slaves obey your masters.' In his book Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris writes that the Bible got the easiest moral question humanity has ever faced wrong. The Bible got slavery wrong. What are the odds that the Bible got something as complicated as human sexuality wrong? I'd put those odds at about 100%.
It shouldn't be hard for modern Christians to ignore what the bible says about gay people because modern Christians—be they conservative fundamentalists or liberal progressives—already ignore most of what the Bible says about sex and relationships. Divorce is condemned in the Old and New Testaments. Jesus Christ condemned divorce. Yet divorce is legal and there is no movement to amend state constitutions to ban divorce. Deuteronomy says that if a woman is not a virgin on her wedding night she shall be dragged to her father's doorstep and stoned to death. Callista Gingrich lives. And there is no effort to amend state constitutions to make it legal to stone the third Mrs. Gingrich to death."
...and maybe I shouldn't have used the word bullshit in this instance. But while it may have been a regrettable word choice, my larger point stands: If believers can ignore what the Bible says about slavery, they can ignore what the Bible says about homosexuality. (The Bible also says some beautiful things that are widely ignored: "Sell what you possess and give to the poor... and come, follow me.” You better get right on that, Joel [Osteen].)
Finally, here's Mark Twain on the Bible:
"It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies."
I'm not guilty of saying anything that hasn't been said before and—yes—said much better. What is "bullshit" in this context but "upwards of a thousand lies" in modern American English? And while those slamming me most loudly for "pansy-assed" may be on the right, they are also in the right. I see their point and, again, I apologize for describing the walk-out as "pansy-assed." But they are wrong when they claim that I "attacked Christianity." There are untrue things in the Bible—and the Koran and the Book of Mormon and every other "sacred" text—and you don't have to take my word for it: just look at all the biblical "shoulds," "shall nots," and "abominations" that religious conservatives already choose to ignore. They know that not everything in the Bible is true.
All Christians read the Bible selectively. Some read it hypocritically—and the hypocrites react very angrily when anyone has the nerve to point that out.
Some people don't understand regardless. There is a rare variety of people that are so emotionally tough and have high enough self esteem that insults do not bother them. I knew a girl that could handle the worst of bullying without batting an eye--because she genuinely believed she was better than everybody else anyway. Learning to take with a grain of salt the opinions of your peers is a skill that is gained with age. Most kids in grade school, and even middle school, do not have this down to a T yet. Nowadays I can ignore somebody who is "bullying" me, but when I was a kid I didn't stand a chance.
Unfortunately it seems that the people who are immune to bullying will continue to talk about how they don't see what the big deal is.
As a Christian, I understand what Dan Savage was trying to say, and I more or less agree with him. As someone who treats the Bible as sacred the use of the word "bullshit" doesn't sit well with me, but I also understand that he is not a Christian and so is not bound to treat the Bible with the kind of reverence I would. Nevertheless, I am able to seperate my personal sensiblities and agree that there is much that we Christians consider irrelevant/no longer applicable in Scripture and thus our fidelity to the Scriptures on homosexuality is a more than a little suspect.
I just personally don't think it's meant to be taken 100% literally, and I personally don't think it should hold any more special of weight than any other books that have those very same qualities. I think it was written by men with their own views of the world around them. It's been changed significantly over the years to fit people's agendas and beliefs. And I find it strange that some people don't seem to see how that poses a problem when it comes to trying to get people to convert to Christianity.
I dunno, I think everyone gets affected in some way by an attack on them. Even if only briefly, I think everyone will have some reaction. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that girl you knew had some nagging self-doubts at some point. She may appear as though she really believes she's better than everyone, but who knows what she's like away from everyone else, or what insecurities she hides in her mind, if any.
But you are right that you won't be able to reach everyone no matter how hard you try, and that there will be people who will just dismiss this sort of thing and say, "Suck it up and deal with it". And you're also right that children definitely struggle in particular because of lack of thicker skins-hell, there are some adults that still haven't developed them.
Doesn't mean we should stop trying, though.
I was attacking the argument that gay people must be discriminated against—and anti-bullying programs that address anti-gay bullying should be blocked (or exceptions should be made for bullying "motivated by faith")—because it says right there in the Bible that being gay is wrong.
There are other texts that predate the bible and contain polytheistic versions of the same stories told in the bible itself. Learning about them drastically changed my viewpoint on how literally one should take the bible. Many things can be learned from it, but it is not the be all end all of theological belief.
On the contrary, kids not being thick skinned enough is why we need to step in. Too many people fall into the habit of blaming the victim for what the attacker did. Regardless of whether or not the bullied child is being too sensitive, we must turn our attention to why the bully is turning to that method of communication and give the bully other ways. If it is "kids just being kids" then we need to do what every parent spends their life doing: educating the kids on better ways to handle problems. Bullying should always be taken seriously.
Your religion and the hundreds of thousands of religions that came before it are bullshit. Why should you be handled with kids gloves when it comes to religion?
Thanks for posting the video though. It's going on my facebook wall so more people can laugh at the ignorant mouth breathers would couldn't stand to be challenged on their beliefs leave the auditorium
As a Christian, I understand what Dan Savage was trying to say, and I more or less agree with him.
(edit)
Nevertheless, I am able to seperate my personal sensiblities and agree that there is much that we Christians consider irrelevant/no longer applicable in Scripture and thus our fidelity to the Scriptures on homosexuality is a more than a little suspect.
Does your church teach that only homosexuals need the forgiveness and grace of Christ? Neither does mine. I bet you're taught also that ALL fall short of the glory of God and ALL need His salvation.
anitram said:That same church would teach that it's a sin for me to live with my partner while we are not married but I am not aware of concerted legislative efforts to stop me from doing that or from extending rights that flow from that relationship.
INDY500 said:I don't care what Dan Savage does in his bedroom. I do, however, care that he would use his fame to misrepresent the Bible in an attempt to alienate Christians from their peers and diminish their belief system.
INDY500 said:I don't buy the argument he gives for a second. He rifled off laws from Leviticus suggesting Christians are hypocrites for only observing sanctions against homosexuality. So what's he saying, that the world would be a better place if all Christian men grew untrimmed beards and protested down at Joe's Crab Shack?
For another thing that charge simply isn't true. Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord." I've been taught that since Bible school and I bet you have too. Same for the book's teaching on the holiness of God and the importance of obedience and worship
And I know I don't have to tell you that Christ brought a new covenant that superceded God's covenant with the Israelites for His believers. If Dan Savage is aware of this he isn't saying. Is homosexuality labeled a sin in the New Testament. Well, yes it is. But it is hardly the only sin is it? Does your church teach that only homosexuals need the forgiveness and grace of Christ? Neither does mine. I bet you're taught also that ALL fall short of the glory of God and ALL need His salvation.
I don't care what Dan Savage does in his bedroom. I do, however, care that he would use his fame to misrepresent the Bible in an attempt to alienate Christians from their peers and diminish their belief system.
Spouts vs. speaks. Your choice of verbs is a bit of a giveaway Jive Turkey.What Santorum spouts and what Savage was speaking about are not flip sides to the same coin.
Right and wrong are not opinions and opinions shouldn't be taken as equal.
Ah but right & wrong are opinions. There are no moral absolutes, haven't you heard? How can there be without an external moral judge. Right and wrong are in the eye of the beholder now and moral relativism makes very little wrong.
Spouts vs. speaks. Your choice of verbs is a bit of a giveaway Jive Turkey.
How can there be without an external moral judge
I don't buy the argument he gives for a second. He rifled off laws from Leviticus suggesting Christians are hypocrites for only observing sanctions against homosexuality. So what's he saying, that the world would be a better place if all Christian men grew untrimmed beards and protested down at Joe's Crab Shack?
For another thing that charge simply isn't true. Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord." I've been taught that since Bible school and I bet you have too. Same for the book's teaching on the holiness of God and the importance of obedience and worship
And I know I don't have to tell you that Christ brought a new covenant that superceded God's covenant with the Israelites for His believers. If Dan Savage is aware of this he isn't saying. Is homosexuality labeled a sin in the New Testament. Well, yes it is. But it is hardly the only sin is it? Does your church teach that only homosexuals need the forgiveness and grace of Christ? Neither does mine. I bet you're taught also that ALL fall short of the glory of God and ALL need His salvation.
I don't care what Dan Savage does in his bedroom. I do, however, care that he would use his fame to misrepresent the Bible in an attempt to alienate Christians from their peers and diminish their belief system.
And I know I don't have to tell you that Christ brought a new covenant that superceded God's covenant with the Israelites for His believers. If Dan Savage is aware of this he isn't saying. Is homosexuality labeled a sin in the New Testament. Well, yes it is. But it is hardly the only sin is it? Does your church teach that only homosexuals need the forgiveness and grace of Christ? Neither does mine. I bet you're taught also that ALL fall short of the glory of God and ALL need His salvation.
And I know I don't have to tell you that Christ brought a new covenant that superceded God's covenant with the Israelites for His believers. If Dan Savage is aware of this he isn't saying. Is homosexuality labeled a sin in the New Testament. Well, yes it is. But it is hardly the only sin is it? Does your church teach that only homosexuals need the forgiveness and grace of Christ? Neither does mine. I bet you're taught also that ALL fall short of the glory of God and ALL need His salvation.
Spot on, Sean.
Indy, it really bothers me that you've reduced Savage's decades long relationship with his partner and their family (they have a son) to what he "does in his bedroom."
Are you telling me that their relationship and status as parents is sinful that you magnanimously then state is really no worse than adultery or murder?
And you then are surprised at how strongly people react to this notion? And then you have the nerve to call Savage a vicious, hateful bigot?
Do you not get that being gay isnt a sex act?
"So your little son starts to act a little girlish when he is four years old and instead of squashing that like a cockroach and saying, “Man up, son, get that dress off you and get outside and dig a ditch, because that is what boys do,” you get out the camera and you start taking pictures of Johnny acting like a female and then you upload it to YouTube and everybody laughs about it and the next thing you know, this dude, this kid is acting out childhood fantasies that should have been squashed.
Can I make it any clearer? Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok? You are not going to act like that. You were made by God to be a male and you are going to be a male. And when your daughter starts acting to Butch you reign her in. And you say, “Oh, no, sweetheart. You can play sports. Play them to the glory of God. But sometimes you are going to act like a girl and walk like a girl and talk like a girl and smell like a girl and that means you are going to be beautiful. You are going to be attractive. You are going to dress yourself up.”
You say, “Can I take charge like that as a parent?”
Yeah, you can. You are authorized. I just gave you a special dispensation this morning to do that."
Really? You know very well that "does in his bedroom." was the boilerplate critique of anyone critical of the gay lifestyle. "What do you care what someone does in their bedroom?" And actually most people would agree with that or that the bullying of a child because you know or suspect they're gay is simply wrong.
But isn't it a bit of a reduction as well when Dan Savage declares the Biblical view of human sexuality as understood by billions of people for thousands of years as "bullshit"?
here's more of what Savage is talking about -- a North Carolina pastor using the Bible to justify giving parents a "special dispensation" to beat your effeminate son:
Irvine511 said:here's more of what Savage is talking about -- a North Carolina pastor using the Bible to justify giving parents a "special dispensation" to beat your effeminate son:
you can listen to the very disturbing audio here:
Video: Amendment 1 pastor gives parents 'special dispensation' to use violence against LGBT kids!!! - Good As You:: Gay and Lesbian Activism With a Sense of Humor
THIS is why gay kids kill themselves.
But isn't it a bit of a reduction as well when Dan Savage declares the Biblical view of human sexuality as understood by billions of people for thousands of years as "bullshit"?
Over to you, Indy.