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Old 05-08-2012, 05:23 PM   #316
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As to my main point, anyone?

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If you apply Savage's logic to the founding of this country than supporters of the 3/5's clause were pro-slavery because they didn't condemn slavery, they only regulated it.
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:33 PM   #317
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i don't think you have a point.
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:34 PM   #318
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... everyone to hang up posters saying Stop Kony!

.... right?
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:46 PM   #319
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how do we know it won't work?
nobody really did it

and Kony is still out there, free
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:48 PM   #320
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No one really did it?

Come on! In Seattle alone, I saw FOUR posters in one neighborhood on the way to work after the Kony Poster Extravaganza took place!

One was even written in ballpoint pen, with a frowny-face drawn on it. That sign alone saved 0.67 children, I'm sure.
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:14 PM   #321
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As to my main point, anyone?
Well, yeah. When it comes to civil rights, the whole "Take it slow, baby steps" argument is much more frustrating than your run-of-the-mill political issue. The reason? Because this isn't an issue where there are legitimate arguments on both sides. That's how all civil rights issues are and have been in the past.

Until you present actual "ramifications" that you keep vaguely alluding to, I have no idea what you're trying to get across. It's pretty amazing, considering we've been having this argument for several years on this forum: I have no idea why you are against same-sex marriage. I've read most of your posts on the topic and still haven't had a takeaway from them.

This is not meant as a criticism, either. I really would like to have you get more into the detail as to what you mean with these "ramifications." I hope we're on the cusp of a better discussion on the issue, as opposed to just another toe dipped in the pool. Otherwise, I'll just have to believe you simply fear change, because that's what it seems like when you simply say "ramifications." To me, it sounds like it's just a fear of the unknown. Yeah, nothing bad has happened in Massachusetts yet, but on a national level what if (BLANK) happens? I don't even know what the blank could be.
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:26 PM   #322
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What Southerners did in the Civil War to justify their view of slavery is exactly, exactly, what Dan Savage does when he misapplies his biblical references to slavery.
I understand the argument--though it's just an argument, not an indisputable fact--that one implication of the letter to Philemon is that Christians should not own Christians. That's quite different from asserting that people may not own people, period.

In 17th-century Virginia there were cases of newly baptized slaves successfully suing for their freedom. The result was that in 1667 the colony's House of Burgesses (America's first legislature) passed a law specifying that baptism was not grounds for manumission, with other colonies soon following suit. Of course, if one is willing to believe in the first place that enslaving people is okay if your purpose is to share Christ with them, it's not much of a leap from there to convincing yourself that retaining them post-Christianization is okay so long as you "...provide your slaves with what is right and fair..." (as interpreted by the slaveholder).

I think it's a pretty weaselly argument to make that the New Testament doesn't condone slavery. The comparison to abolitionist Philadephia Convention delegates doesn't work for me--they may not have had the numbers to end slavery, but they made their personal moral objections to the institution explicit and crystal-clear.
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Not slaves but certainly the descendents of Western slaves. And you either understand what that means or you don't care to.
Actually, I would like to understand what you mean here but don't. Present-day African-Americans are able to partake in the generally high standard of living in this country insofar as their fundamental human rights have (finally) been acknowledged by its laws. And that outcome is to be credited to slavery how?
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:52 PM   #323
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As for the slaves...

Think about it, something "being the norm" never stopped Christians from putting a taboo on it. They only put taboos on what they considered to be sinful and bad, and tried to live "just and righteous" lives... with slaves.

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No one really did it?

Come on! In Seattle alone, I saw FOUR posters in one neighborhood on the way to work after the Kony Poster Extravaganza took place!

One was even written in ballpoint pen, with a frowny-face drawn on it. That sign alone saved 0.67 children, I'm sure.
There were a bunch near cross-roads in Bellevue, if you know where that is. It was ridiculous. Also had some guy raising awareness about Kony outside of Target. Seattlites, man.
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:56 PM   #324
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And that outcome is to be credited to slavery how?
They wouldn't have otherwise been here will be the argument.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:26 PM   #325
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They wouldn't have otherwise been here will be the argument.
Yeah, you'd think a simple "thank you" would be in order.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:44 PM   #326
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With out slavery there would be no Oprah.

Think about it.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:52 PM   #327
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...woah.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:16 PM   #328
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Having been a missionary for eleven years, I take exception to the broad brush missionaries are being painted with. My guess is most of you have very little real, personal experience with actual missionaries.

I get the criticisms--I read (and loved) The Posionwood Bible--but at the same time, that kind of missionary, and the kind you all are talking about has nothing to do with most of the missionaries I know. I would hope it has nothing to do with me or the work I did either.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:22 PM   #329
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Having been a missionary for eleven years, I take exception to the broad brush missionaries are being painted with. My guess is most of you have very little real, personal experience with actual missionaries.

I get the criticisms--I read (and loved) The Posionwood Bible--but at the same time, that kind of missionary, and the kind you all are talking about has nothing to do with most of the missionaries I know. I would hope it has nothing to do with me or the work I did either.
Nobody's painting missionaries with a broad brush, we're simply stating that there are issues with certain missionaries and sponsor companies. I understand that the missionaries you know have nothing to do with that, same with several great missionaries I know. But there is a problem and I think it's been ignored for far too long.
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:41 AM   #330
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With out slavery there would be no Oprah.

Think about it.
you just blew my mind.
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