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Old 04-30-2012, 09:30 PM   #196
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What Santorum spouts and what Savage was speaking about are not flip sides to the same coin.
Spouts vs. speaks. Your choice of verbs is a bit of a giveaway Jive Turkey.
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Right and wrong are not opinions and opinions shouldn't be taken as equal.
Ah but right & wrong are opinions. There are no moral absolutes, haven't you heard? How can there be without an external moral judge. Right and wrong are in the eye of the beholder now and moral relativism makes very little wrong.
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:35 PM   #197
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More strawmen

Remember you yourself have argued relativism when it comes to capital punishment...
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:45 PM   #198
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Ah but right & wrong are opinions. There are no moral absolutes, haven't you heard? How can there be without an external moral judge. Right and wrong are in the eye of the beholder now and moral relativism makes very little wrong.
Ugh, I'm sorry, but this argument bugs me to no end. It always comes up in relation to the Bible and it just makes me want to scream.

I'm not a Christian. But I'd like to think I still have a very strong moral code. I'm fully aware of what I consider "right" and "wrong" and don't need a higher being to instruct me in such matters.

In my moral code, discriminating against people because of their sexual orientation is wrong. Letting a couple who love each other and want to be together get married if they so choose is right. A god didn't teach me that, my parents did. And even if they hadn't taught me that, I'd still believe it anyway, because I believe in fairness and treating people with respect and decency.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:00 PM   #199
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Spouts vs. speaks. Your choice of verbs is a bit of a giveaway Jive Turkey.
I was well aware of my choice I wear my disdain on my sleeve. I figured you'd comment on it too, so I just left it in


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How can there be without an external moral judge
Good thing you believe in an external moral judge or else you'd be out raping and pillaging throughout your neighbourhood (I don't think that would be the case though Indy. Do you?). I'm surprised humanity even made it up to 2000 years ago without anyone telling everyone what was right and wrong. It's almost as if it's inherent.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:20 PM   #200
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I don't buy the argument he gives for a second. He rifled off laws from Leviticus suggesting Christians are hypocrites for only observing sanctions against homosexuality. So what's he saying, that the world would be a better place if all Christian men grew untrimmed beards and protested down at Joe's Crab Shack?

For another thing that charge simply isn't true. Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord." I've been taught that since Bible school and I bet you have too. Same for the book's teaching on the holiness of God and the importance of obedience and worship

And I know I don't have to tell you that Christ brought a new covenant that superceded God's covenant with the Israelites for His believers. If Dan Savage is aware of this he isn't saying. Is homosexuality labeled a sin in the New Testament. Well, yes it is. But it is hardly the only sin is it? Does your church teach that only homosexuals need the forgiveness and grace of Christ? Neither does mine. I bet you're taught also that ALL fall short of the glory of God and ALL need His salvation.

I don't care what Dan Savage does in his bedroom. I do, however, care that he would use his fame to misrepresent the Bible in an attempt to alienate Christians from their peers and diminish their belief system.
I think you should reconsider purchasing (his argument, is).

Clearly he is not arguing in favor of long beards or avoiding unclean foods (incidentally, in my church we actually do follow that Levitical law regarding unclean foods. I don't think there's anything morally binding about it, but I know there are those in my denomination that think otherwise. Nonetheless I do follow that proscription--don't eat pork, shellfish etc). He is arguing that if we can reasonably excuse ourselves from those things that we ought to be able to to do the same regarding homosexuality. He's arguing that we have rightly decided that slavery isn't right despite the fact that Bible (Old or New) seems supportive of the institution. He's arguing that Christians could make the same distinction about homosexuality, and yet many are resisting doing so, which begs the question of why.

I don't believe I've said anything that contradicts that basic Christian beliefs about sin and salvation.

I think Savage's language and tone were harsh--but I don't think that it constitutes a misrepresentation of the Bible.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:26 PM   #201
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Spot on, Sean.

Indy, it really bothers me that you've reduced Savage's decades long relationship with his partner and their family (they have a son) to what he "does in his bedroom."

Are you telling me that their relationship and status as parents is sinful that you magnanimously then state is really no worse than adultery or murder?

And you then are surprised at how strongly people react to this notion? And then you have the nerve to call Savage a vicious, hateful bigot?

Do you not get that being gay isnt a sex act?
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:43 PM   #202
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And I know I don't have to tell you that Christ brought a new covenant that superceded God's covenant with the Israelites for His believers. If Dan Savage is aware of this he isn't saying. Is homosexuality labeled a sin in the New Testament. Well, yes it is. But it is hardly the only sin is it? Does your church teach that only homosexuals need the forgiveness and grace of Christ? Neither does mine. I bet you're taught also that ALL fall short of the glory of God and ALL need His salvation.

You realize that this is exactly what Savage is talking about?
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:15 PM   #203
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And I know I don't have to tell you that Christ brought a new covenant that superceded God's covenant with the Israelites for His believers. If Dan Savage is aware of this he isn't saying. Is homosexuality labeled a sin in the New Testament. Well, yes it is. But it is hardly the only sin is it? Does your church teach that only homosexuals need the forgiveness and grace of Christ? Neither does mine. I bet you're taught also that ALL fall short of the glory of God and ALL need His salvation.
Jesus never spoke of it. It is only in Romans 1:26–27 (and that entire section of Romans is completely messed up, to be honest, and has backwards logic), and SOME translations of 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 (which rather than condemning homosexuality, it merely states that there are plenty of other sin to watch out for). It's important to note that many translations contain at most a very vague reference to it in Romans. The thing about the bible is that major languages it was originally written in are both drastically different from the English language in structure. Many things are added, wordings are changed, and the original meaning lost.

A friend of mine is fluent in Hebrew (and Arabic, and dutch) and has read the bible in that form. Considering she works as a translator (for other things--not the bible) I trust her skill with the language. I am aware that there's no way to state this for certain unless I myself learn hebrew and read it in hebrew, but according to her and one of the biblical scholars I spoke to, many of the "rules" that modern day English-speaking Christians/Catholics follow do not even exist or make definitive sense in the original language. It's a whole lot of adding words in to make the sentence makes sense, which various translators have done differently.

I just wanted to clear this up. I know the NIV version does make the mentions you are referring to (I believe Timothy has one as well) but not all translations of the bible have them, and in certain versions the homosexuality is actually added into the bible shortly after homosexuality started being widely known around the 1980s.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:53 PM   #204
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Spot on, Sean.

Indy, it really bothers me that you've reduced Savage's decades long relationship with his partner and their family (they have a son) to what he "does in his bedroom."

Are you telling me that their relationship and status as parents is sinful that you magnanimously then state is really no worse than adultery or murder?

And you then are surprised at how strongly people react to this notion? And then you have the nerve to call Savage a vicious, hateful bigot?

Do you not get that being gay isnt a sex act?
Really? You know very well that "does in his bedroom." was the boilerplate critique of anyone critical of the gay lifestyle. "What do you care what someone does in their bedroom?" And actually most people would agree with that or that the bullying of a child because you know or suspect they're gay is simply wrong.

But isn't it a bit of a reduction as well when Dan Savage declares the Biblical view of human sexuality as understood by billions of people for thousands of years as "bullshit"?
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:56 PM   #205
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here's more of what Savage is talking about -- a North Carolina pastor using the Bible to justify giving parents a "special dispensation" to beat your effeminate son:

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"So your little son starts to act a little girlish when he is four years old and instead of squashing that like a cockroach and saying, “Man up, son, get that dress off you and get outside and dig a ditch, because that is what boys do,” you get out the camera and you start taking pictures of Johnny acting like a female and then you upload it to YouTube and everybody laughs about it and the next thing you know, this dude, this kid is acting out childhood fantasies that should have been squashed.

Can I make it any clearer? Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok? You are not going to act like that. You were made by God to be a male and you are going to be a male. And when your daughter starts acting to Butch you reign her in. And you say, “Oh, no, sweetheart. You can play sports. Play them to the glory of God. But sometimes you are going to act like a girl and walk like a girl and talk like a girl and smell like a girl and that means you are going to be beautiful. You are going to be attractive. You are going to dress yourself up.”

You say, “Can I take charge like that as a parent?”

Yeah, you can. You are authorized. I just gave you a special dispensation this morning to do that."


you can listen to the very disturbing audio here:

Video: Amendment 1 pastor gives parents 'special dispensation' to use violence against LGBT kids!!! - Good As You:: Gay and Lesbian Activism With a Sense of Humor



THIS is why gay kids kill themselves.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:58 PM   #206
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Really? You know very well that "does in his bedroom." was the boilerplate critique of anyone critical of the gay lifestyle. "What do you care what someone does in their bedroom?" And actually most people would agree with that or that the bullying of a child because you know or suspect they're gay is simply wrong.

But isn't it a bit of a reduction as well when Dan Savage declares the Biblical view of human sexuality as understood by billions of people for thousands of years as "bullshit"?


stop this "lifestyle" bullshit right now. there is no lifestyle. there are only lives. being a vegetarian is a lifestyle. being a triathlete is a lifestyle. being gay is not a lifestyle. it is a sexual orientation.

yes, really. i've never used "does in his bedroom" as a defense. i've always, ALWAYS resisted reducing gay people to sex acts. "do in his bedroom" is a step along the way to acceptance -- why do we care who fucks who? -- but it always has and always will reduce people to sex acts.

again, Savage is talking about the fact that it is "bullshit" for people to use the bible to justify homophobia while they're willing to eat shellfish, wear beards, and not stone women to death or have slaves.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:00 PM   #207
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here's more of what Savage is talking about -- a North Carolina pastor using the Bible to justify giving parents a "special dispensation" to beat your effeminate son:
Christ, what an asshole.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:04 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Irvine511
here's more of what Savage is talking about -- a North Carolina pastor using the Bible to justify giving parents a "special dispensation" to beat your effeminate son:

you can listen to the very disturbing audio here:

Video: Amendment 1 pastor gives parents 'special dispensation' to use violence against LGBT kids!!! - Good As You:: Gay and Lesbian Activism With a Sense of Humor

THIS is why gay kids kill themselves.
Over to you, Indy.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:06 PM   #209
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But isn't it a bit of a reduction as well when Dan Savage declares the Biblical view of human sexuality as understood by billions of people for thousands of years as "bullshit"?
Keep harping on your misunderstanding... it's what you do
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:07 PM   #210
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Over to you, Indy.


to be fair, INDY has made it clear he does not condone this kind of thing.

but this IS what Savage is talking about. "for the Bible tells me so."
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