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Old 12-28-2009, 10:08 PM   #31
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I am a believer in that rebel from Nazareth.

I believe he was God.

I also believe in the scriptures, he often quoted.

Homosexuality is a sin. It's not right. It's not a gay life at all.


One of my best friends was homosexual, he killed himself at he age of 47.
I hope your Jesus forgives your intolerance when you leave this world.
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:57 AM   #32
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I am a believer in that rebel from Nazareth.

I believe he was God.

I also believe in the scriptures, he often quoted.

Homosexuality is a sin. It's not right. It's not a gay life at all.


One of my best friends was homosexual, he killed himself at he age of 47.
You're despicable.
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:25 PM   #33
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Finding iron horse's beliefs on homosexuality as offensive as some of you (and I) do does not give you free license to attack him personally. Let's keep things civil in here.
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:40 PM   #34
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Jesus never mentioned homosexuality...

And it's homophobia like this that leads people to hate themselves.

You should be ashamed.
It's not even mentioned that much in the bible as a whole really. there are many sins which are mentioned and condemned far more in the bible but which are accepted quite readily and easily by society than homosexuality.
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Old 12-29-2009, 03:02 PM   #35
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It's not even mentioned that much in the bible as a whole really. there are many sins which are mentioned and condemned far more in the bible but which are accepted quite readily and easily by society than homosexuality.
And if one does some real research they'll find it really isn't mentioned at all as being a sin...

but it's their own hate in their own hearts that these bigots have to deal with...
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Old 12-29-2009, 04:50 PM   #36
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British Lions rugby legend Gareth Thomas: 'It's ended my marriage and nearly driven me to suicide. Now it's time to tell the world the truth - I'm gay | Mail Online

Not that surprising, as it has been well known in rugby circles for years. It's interesting that rugby is way less homophobic than soccer. There are several very well known soccer players that are heavily rumoured to be gay, but haven't come out for fear of the fans' and other players' reactions.
You think they haven't come out for fear of the reaction from other players and fans?

I think it's much more likely that they haven't come out for fear of the reaction from the gay community. Men who kick balls for a living can't be that popular.
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Old 12-29-2009, 04:56 PM   #37
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It's not even mentioned that much in the bible as a whole really.
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And if one does some real research they'll find it really isn't mentioned at all as being a sin...
This sort of inane argument hurts the gay community more than it helps. It isn't mentioned much in the bible therefore it's not important? Communion is only mentioned twice.

It's not mentioned as a sin? For the love of god (pun?), whoever told you that has either never read the bible or has very (VERY) poor reading comprehension.

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there are many sins which are mentioned and condemned far more in the bible but which are accepted quite readily and easily by society than homosexuality.

This, however, is a very astute point. I think every "christian" should wrestle with the question of why homosexuality has been put on a pedestal as a major sin when their churches are full of greedy, gossiping gluttons who rarely move away from their sin.
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Old 12-29-2009, 05:14 PM   #38
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I'm not sure BVS was that far off the mark... Melon has laid it out here in quite a bit of detail at various times over the years. The bible has a little bit to say about it, but it's a little unclear what 'it' is, since we are working off translations from a word that isn't as clearcut as it might seem, was apparently not that widely used at the time, and might likely not be referring to our modern understanding of homosexuality.
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Old 12-29-2009, 05:46 PM   #39
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I'm not sure BVS was that far off the mark... Melon has laid it out here in quite a bit of detail at various times over the years. The bible has a little bit to say about it, but it's a little unclear what 'it' is, since we are working off translations from a word that isn't as clearcut as it might seem, was apparently not that widely used at the time, and might likely not be referring to our modern understanding of homosexuality.
Well I'm sure that melon has spent a great deal more time than I have studying the subject. I grew up as a non-believer in one of the most conservative areas in the US (eat it scumbo), so started reading the bible to understand the people around me. I'd like to think I read it as literature not a holy book. That doesn't mean I'm objective, but I don't have a great deal of emotion wrapped up in it. Here's what I've concluded:

1. As a historical document, the bible is reliable. The source material for the bible is remarkable in it's number and consistency. For better or for worse, the bible that we have is the bible that was written. The modern translations (not paraphrases) do a good job of translating and make note of it when there is some question over a word or phrase.

2. That being said, the commentary that I've read arguing that the bible doesn't condemn the practice of homosexuality has been akin to the commentary I've read that tries to justify the American lifestyle with scripture. It's simply bad exegesis. Now don't get me wrong, I completely understand why it exists and sympathize with the motives, but texts have meanings and authors have purposes. As readers, our goal should always be to understand those and not read our own agendas into a work.

3. The bigger question for me (and no one has been able to answer this satisfactorily yet) is why do churches put such an emphasis on homosexuality (when the bible does not) and are unwilling to put an emphasis on sins dealing with money and resources (when the bible does). I think the more appropriate argument from homosexuals to the church is "fine, we're sinners, but no more so than you. If you have a place in this church then so do we." To me the argument is not about homosexuality sin/not sin, but rather an argument of belonging. Do homosexuals have a place in churches and church community. Looking at the churches I've seen, I see no reason in scripture to keep them out.
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Old 12-29-2009, 05:55 PM   #40
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Let me extrapolate on that last point a bit farther (sorry, I know most of you don't care). If I were an american preacher, I think I'd preach the story of Jesus and the rich young ruler every Sunday. It seems to be the most applicable, but I think most christians in my town have torn it out of their bible. I don't remember where it's at, but you can look it up. In the story, a rich young ruler comes before and asks Jesus what he must do to inherit the kingdom of god. Now the author has already told us that this rich young ruler has kept the law (he's a very religious person), but Jesus tells him that if he wants to inherit the kingdom he needs to go and sell all of his possessions and come and follow Jesus. The moral of the story seems to be that Jesus is calling this rich young ruler to give up his identity (all that we know about him is that he is a rich young ruler - that is who he is) and to follow Jesus.

Doesn't that sound a lot like what american christians tell homosexuals? You need to give up your identity (I'm gay) and follow Jesus. I've no problem with that if they are also telling they tell the people who find their identity in their ability to succeed in business that they need to turn from that and follow Jesus or the person that finds their identity in their relationships to turn from that and follow Jesus. If that call is consistent across the board, fine. If not, then what right do churches have to try to keep one sin out and not another?
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:13 PM   #41
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I think a lot of this stuff is as much an expression of certain communities of interest as anything else. Extremely conservative Christianity in the USA, from a distance, seems driven by a culture-war mindset as much as anything else. I wager that homosexuality=bad is among very few things they can agree on in those megachurches.

Not that anecdote proves much, but I spent the first twenty years of my life attending Catholic mass weekly and the priest had a lot to say about materialism, family, charity, love, forgiveness. Although officially the line was maintained that homosexuality is wrong (which needless to say, I disagree with), it was just not that big a deal. Barely mentioned, I would say. I remember one fairly wise old priest we had for years who took the view that on certain issues the official church became paralysed and you either dug into your mutual ditches, or you just sidestepped it and got on with things.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:26 PM   #42
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Not that anecdote proves much, but I spent the first twenty years of my life attending Catholic mass weekly and the priest had a lot to say about materialism, family, charity, love, forgiveness. Although officially the line was maintained that homosexuality is wrong (which needless to say, I disagree with), it was just not that big a deal. Barely mentioned, I would say. I remember one fairly wise old priest we had for years who took the view that on certain issues the official church became paralysed and you either dug into your mutual ditches, or you just sidestepped it and got on with things.
That does seem very wise.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:38 PM   #43
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It's not mentioned as a sin? For the love of god (pun?), whoever told you that has either never read the bible or has very (VERY) poor reading comprehension.
There are many that have studied the original texts that have come to the conclusion that there is no text that ever says homosexuality is a sin.

I guess those theologians who've spent their whole careers studying the original texts were all morons...
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:56 PM   #44
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I guess those theologians who've spent their whole careers studying the original texts were all morons...
They would not be the first.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:58 PM   #45
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I think a lot of this stuff is as much an expression of certain communities of interest as anything else. Extremely conservative Christianity in the USA, from a distance, seems driven by a culture-war mindset as much as anything else. I wager that homosexuality=bad is among very few things they can agree on in those megachurches.

Not that anecdote proves much, but I spent the first twenty years of my life attending Catholic mass weekly and the priest had a lot to say about materialism, family, charity, love, forgiveness. Although officially the line was maintained that homosexuality is wrong (which needless to say, I disagree with), it was just not that big a deal. Barely mentioned, I would say. I remember one fairly wise old priest we had for years who took the view that on certain issues the official church became paralysed and you either dug into your mutual ditches, or you just sidestepped it and got on with things.

Given that the Vatican has officially pronounced homosexuality an 'ideology of evil', I don't think I buy the notion which you seem to be postulating (correct me if I'm wrong) that Christianist homophobia is largely a US evangelist Christian issue and not a particularly noteworthy feature of the Church of Rome.

And for the record I was not personally oppressed by the Catholic Church in any way shape or form (except intellectually).

Sinead O'Connor was right all along, it has taken Irish society in particular a long slow process to accept that.
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