Brexit

[PhilsFan]

The far-ish left and right find are find common ground in the populist scapegoating of "elites" (whatever those are), demands for ideological purity, suspecting the worst possible motivations of those who disagree with them, and the effective corralling of the economic anxieties of the working classes towards and against larger institutions that they now declare failed. And, in your case, the drive by snark.

I read the big Glen Greenwald article on Brexit from a few days ago, and it could have found a home in the National Review or whatever.

Yeah, this kind of pisses me off. I think there is a difference between "demanding ideological purity" and "being pissed at settling for Clinton" that the anti-Sanders left has largely ignored to paint the "far left" as being just like the far-right.

I understand your points here, and your frustration with some of Vlad's posts. But you also should understand how the tone has come off. You say we're scapegoating people who disagree by assigning them the worst possible motivations, but can you see how this sort of attitude comes off as "othering" the far left to make yourself feel better about where you fall on the progressivism scale? It's dismissive. I've always found the "hey, the far ends of both sides suck, we can agree on that" a huge cop out, a cheap way to gain legitimacy in a political discussion. Are there aspects of the far left I'm not thrilled about? I guess. I can't think of many, other than the occasional tone-deafness and over-reliance on this cycle on sloganeering rather than substance. But comparing the far left to the far right just rubs me wrong, and ignores so much context that informs the positions.

It's very true that politics moves slower than we would like it to, even when there is an obvious right-and-wrong (which there often is, way more than many would like to admit). But that does not mean that the candidates themselves need to be middle-ground centrists. There was a very long period of time there where the right stayed extreme while the left caved and caved and allowed the center to move even farther right. I don't yearn for those days.

 

[Irvine511]

Yeah, this kind of pisses me off. I think there is a difference between "demanding ideological purity" and "being pissed at settling for Clinton" that the anti-Sanders left has largely ignored to paint the "far left" as being just like the far-right.

it would piss me off too if that's what i said, but it isn't. and i've long agreed with what it is i think you're saying: it's totally bogus to think the far left and the far right are the same. they aren't. i think it's bogus for someone to say "both parties are the same! they're all crooks! i'm an honest broker because i'm calling them both out!" when we have clear, demonstrable differences between at least the political parties.

what i am saying is they seem to be finding common ground in a minimum of two ways:

1. the far right and the far left seem to be agreeing on protectionist populism geared towards the working class
2. there's a vocalized scapegoating of "elites" or "global elites" on both sides -- whomever they may be.

I understand your points here, and your frustration with some of Vlad's posts. But you also should understand how the tone has come off. You say we're scapegoating people who disagree by assigning them the worst possible motivations, but can you see how this sort of attitude comes off as "othering" the far left to make yourself feel better about where you fall on the progressivism scale? It's dismissive.

i really don't feel the obligation to flash whatever progressive credentials might be required to place myself on whatever scale may or may not exist, but this highlights what seems to me to be a newly vocalized in mainstream discourse since the rise (and fall) of Sanders: there are True Progressives, and if you deviate from our orthodoxy you are Part Of The Problem.

i'm also not sure how critiques and distinctions come off as "othering" -- but i suppose that's how it is now?

I've always found the "hey, the far ends of both sides suck, we can agree on that" a huge cop out, a cheap way to gain legitimacy in a political discussion. Are there aspects of the far left I'm not thrilled about? I guess. I can't think of many, other than the occasional tone-deafness and over-reliance on this cycle on sloganeering rather than substance. But comparing the far left to the far right just rubs me wrong, and ignores so much context that informs the positions.

i think i addressed this earlier.

It's very true that politics moves slower than we would like it to, even when there is an obvious right-and-wrong (which there often is, way more than many would like to admit). But that does not mean that the candidates themselves need to be middle-ground centrists. There was a very long period of time there where the right stayed extreme while the left caved and caved and allowed the center to move even farther right. I don't yearn for those days.

i think a lot of complex things are getting mixed up in here and we may be talking past each other to a certain extent.

 

[Popmartijn]

This makes sense, but for me this underscores a problem with the logic of the EU. Why put up red tape for investors or companies at all? By doing so you are forcing a choice that doesn't need to be there in the first place and in the process reducing surplus. Why not have a free-trade zone among European countries or even a larger conglomerate and get rid of the common currency and central bank?

There is this free-trade zone among European countries. The common currency (and then, by extension, the European central bank) is to allow even more economic prosperity and union to be recognized as a powerhouse. OK, that was maybe the theoretical outset, but still. The introduction of the euro has brought much economic prosperity with the abolishment of exchange rates between the euro-countries. Imagine if every state in the US had its own currency. Trade would become so much more inefficient and some states would suffer even more economically as their trade position would be so low.

And for a free-trade zone to happen effectively rules have to be in place. Like the free movement of goods, labour and services. Now, the UK seems to be stepping back from it, but it's one of the conditions to make it work. You can't just say "I welcome whatever you want to export to us and with you shielding off everything in your country." The openess needs to be bilateral.

There is going to be UK/Eurozone integration regardless of the UK's membership - why not make it easy rather than difficult?

True. However, in the eyes of the EU it's currently the UK that wants to make it difficult. The UK seems to suggest they want to nitpick among the conditions and results. Which is not something the EU is prepared to do.

 

[deep]

Irvine, in Europe, i believe the whole scale shifts a lot further to the left compared with the US, and even Democrats are at least close to if not further right than the British Conservatives... i think our Socialists (here in France) would be seen as Communists over there [emoji38]

it's the same between France and the UK - the Conservative equivalent in France are not as far right as the Conservatives in Britain

Are you in France or England and in which country are you a citizen? (just for context)

 

[mama cass]

True. However, in the eyes of the EU it's currently the UK that wants to make it difficult. The UK seems to suggest they want to nitpick among the conditions and results. Which is not something the EU is prepared to do.

this gave me a much needed giggle earlier - from a British TV sitcom called Yes, Minister, over 30 years ago! it basically sums it all up perfectly...




and this is a must-see too - it's perfect and pretty bang on i reckon!

 

[mama cass]

Are you in France or England and in which country are you a citizen? (just for context)

i'm a British citizen but a permanent resident of France - i have residency/work rights due to being an EU/British citizen, so will be a bit in limbo with all of this lol

 

[LuckyNumber7]

i'm a British citizen but a permanent resident of France - i have residency/work rights due to being an EU/British citizen, so will be a bit in limbo with all of this lol

I'm in a similar boat. Irish citizen (via the US) in England. Dunno what's gonna happen at the end of the English membership.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Churchill wasn't exactly the brilliant, reasonable man history paints him to be.

I think this is an oft forgotten thing, even today. He was vile and not much better than Mussolini.

Yeah, this kind of pisses me off. I think there is a difference between "demanding ideological purity" and "being pissed at settling for Clinton" that the anti-Sanders left has largely ignored to paint the "far left" as being just like the far-right.

Yeah, look, I tend to think Sanders is still very limited even for what he is. I'm certainly not going to demand 'ideological purity' from him as it would suggest he is someone he has never been, he is what he is.

I understand your points here, and your frustration with some of Vlad's posts. But you also should understand how the tone has come off. You say we're scapegoating people who disagree by assigning them the worst possible motivations, but can you see how this sort of attitude comes off as "othering" the far left to make yourself feel better about where you fall on the progressivism scale? It's dismissive. I've always found the "hey, the far ends of both sides suck, we can agree on that" a huge cop out, a cheap way to gain legitimacy in a political discussion. Are there aspects of the far left I'm not thrilled about? I guess. I can't think of many, other than the occasional tone-deafness and over-reliance on this cycle on sloganeering rather than substance. But comparing the far left to the far right just rubs me wrong, and ignores so much context that informs the positions.

It's just a painfully lazy position to take, it's reminiscent of approaching a far right rally (see Sacramento several days ago) with counter protestors and saying 'both sides are as bad as each other', which is something so commonly implied in the mainstream media both in Australia and the US. And yes, not to mention the historical significance - mindlessly equating the two vastly different and opposing sides is ignorant at best and very dangerous at worst. I'm happy to discuss with those of a liberal political persuasion, but you cross that particular line and there's really no point in engaging.

There was a very long period of time there where the right stayed extreme while the left caved and caved and allowed the center to move even farther right. I don't yearn for those days.

I think this is still fairly prevalent today, albeit on a lesser scale of course.

 

[mama cass]

I'm in a similar boat. Irish citizen (via the US) in England. Dunno what's gonna happen at the end of the English membership.

are you in the UK now? stay safe because the xenophobia that has been unleashed right now is horrific

 

[LuckyNumber7]

are you in the UK now? stay safe because the xenophobia that has been unleashed right now is horrific

Appreciate it, but I'm actually in the US for a few weeks then out to Leicester. Don't know if Leicester is seeing the xenophobia extra hard, or the opposite.

 

[mama cass]

Appreciate it, but I'm actually in the US for a few weeks then out to Leicester. Don't know if Leicester is seeing the xenophobia extra hard, or the opposite.

wow, Leicester is not far from where i grew up - it's a really multicultural place - awesome football club lately too hehe

well i'm not sure how the vote went in Leicester, but the Midlands as a whole weren't looking great i think, and sadly racism there can be pretty grim due to the very vocal extreme right contingent as always in a multicultural context

but it's hard to know without being there, and most people are lovely, just a few idiots spoiling it for everyone... there's a "safety pin" campaign happening in the UK at the moment where people are wearing a plain safety pin to show others that they are a "safe" person to sit next to on the train etc. - although i can't believe it has come to this

however, apparently travel warnings have been issued for Britain following Brexit and i've read reports about even tourists being attacked - i look visibly "foreign" in Britain and am holding off plans to visit family over there right now, but am hoping it will calm down soon... good luck with everything!! feel free to PM me if you want to chat about things!!

 

[Muad'zin]

You have incredible faith in politicians.

I have zero faith in politicians. But when I see how stupid the average voter is, and I realize that half of the electorate is even more stupid then that, politicians start to look mighty good by comparison.

Thing also is, our political system operates on the understanding that we, the people, do not all have the knowhow, understanding or capability to make informed decisions on every issue, so we elect delegates to make those decisions for us. It's imperfect, but all the alternatives suck even worse. Direct democracy was tried in Ancient Athens and it led to demagogues starting stupid wars (read upon the expedition to Syracuse) and the electorate into voting themselves free money.

I think Brexit was a revolt against entrenched political systems in Europe. A bloodless rebellion.

True. But then again when has any people actually been better off after a revolution? Ask the French, the Russians, the Iranians, the Egyptians and the Syrians if their revolutions improved on their situations.

So voters should be required to take a current events test in order to vote?

Ideally, yes. As a significant part of them are political retards. In practice the scope of abuse in that system means there's no actual improvement so we might as well stick with the current system. Of electing officials to vote on our behalf every so couple of years.

There seems to be an assumption running through this thread that the majority of people who voted Leave must not have had any rationale for what they were doing or any sense of consequence. That's one hell of an assumption.

I think that applies for most people. They make emotional decisions and only rationalize those decisions afterwards. Referendums make that worse because it turns incredibly complex issues into simple yes or nos. It's made worse that people use referendums to express displeasure with current governments. Considering what was at stake this referendum was the equivalent of being so pissed off with the house that you're living in that you set fire to your own room.

I don't doubt the significant role xenophobia and racism played in the outcome, but it's far too early to make pronouncements about Leave being a mistake, regardless of individual rationales for voting how they did.

I'm just an American onlooker obviously, but I think the EU is a failed experiment and that, if Britain follows through on leaving, this whole thing might turn out to be in their economic favor in the long run.

It might be argued that the US is also a failed experiment. There is a massive disconnect between voters and politicians as well, half the people don't vote, the president can't pass anything through Congress because of gridlock, campaign financing makes politicians corrupt and bought by big business and you have a massive national debt. By comparison EU decision making might be slow, but at least it always manages to squeeze out a compromise to get things going again. It might not be a perfect compromise, but it's more then the US Congress seems able to do.

This makes sense, but for me this underscores a problem with the logic of the EU. Why put up red tape for investors or companies at all? By doing so you are forcing a choice that doesn't need to be there in the first place and in the process reducing surplus. Why not have a free-trade zone among European countries or even a larger conglomerate and get rid of the common currency and central bank? There is going to be UK/Eurozone integration regardless of the UK's membership - why not make it easy rather than difficult?

Because a free trade zone needs a common set of rules and regulations to work. Otherwise jobs would move en masse to those countries with the lowest wages and standards. Like what happened with NAFTA. We don't want a race to the bottom. Consumers need to know that what they are buying in the shop is actually what it says it is. That the chocolate they're buying is actual chocolate, not some poor substitute or made of poor quality.

 

[Salome]

Adrift | The Economist

 

[Salome]

Muad'zin, agreed with yuor entire post

 

[Vlad n U 2]

True. But then again when has any people actually been better off after a revolution? Ask the French, the Russians, the Iranians, the Egyptians and the Syrians if their revolutions improved on their situations.

This is a bit of a blanket statement, isn't it though? No revolution is the same and it's hard to compare those many decades apart (and naturally I disagree with the notion that the Russian revolution of 1917 did not improve the situation at the time, especially given the state of the Tsarist regime).

 

[mama cass]

True. But then again when has any people actually been better off after a revolution? Ask the French, the Russians, the Iranians, the Egyptians and the Syrians if their revolutions improved on their situations.

well Bastille Day is a pretty big thing here

 

[mama cass]

well this trainwreck is still so compelling

Gove has done another u-turn and is now running for PM and Boris has stood down

Labour is still in complete disarray and emotions are running high

no sign of the stiff upper lip and all that...

all we need now is for U2 to stealth drop their album onto everyone's iphones again

(not kidding - we need saving from this hell)

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Boris just repeating his youth in the Bullingdon Club. Smashing things up and then running off.

 

[mama cass]

Boris just repeating his youth in the Bullingdon Club. Smashing things up and then running off.

trouble is, he's got nowhere to go - he will be the most hated man in Britain - on BOTH SIDES - bet he never saw that one coming...

 

[iron yuppie]

Because a free trade zone needs a common set of rules and regulations to work. Otherwise jobs would move en masse to those countries with the lowest wages and standards. Like what happened with NAFTA. We don't want a race to the bottom. Consumers need to know that what they are buying in the shop is actually what it says it is. That the chocolate they're buying is actual chocolate, not some poor substitute or made of poor quality.

That is not what happened with NAFTA. Rather there has been net US job creation since the launch of NAFTA. Sure, some unskilled jobs left for Mexico etc, but this was going to happen with or without a free-trade agreement, whether to Mexico or Indonesia or wherever else.

Yes there is bureaucracy necessary for a free-trade agreement, but I will hold to my point that the Euro and European Central Bank are not necessary for that to work. You just have to look at Greece to see how problematic it is to apply the same interest rates, goods access, etc to economies with wildly different strength levels. Sending a bunch of Mercedes over to Greece on super easy credit hasn't worked out for anyone.

 

[martha]

bet he never saw that one coming...

They never do.

 

[DaveC]

(and naturally I disagree with the notion that the Russian revolution of 1917 did not improve the situation at the time, especially given the state of the Tsarist regime).

at least until stalin, i would say you're absolutely right.

 

[iron yuppie]

Those early years under Lenin were hellish, weren't they? Famine, civil war, state-wide censorship - I'd be curious to hear how things were worse under Nicholas, World War I notwithstanding.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Those early years under Lenin were hellish, weren't they? Famine, civil war, state-wide censorship - I'd be curious to hear how things were worse under Nicholas, World War I notwithstanding.

I'm going to keep this hidden, don't want to get too off topic in this thread.

Spoiler

The early years weren't easy by any stretch. It would have been unreasonable to imagine they could have been plain sailing. Coming through a revolution and then engaged in a civil war backed by foreign powers (which of course had a resulting effect on further years). Famines were a common occurrence in the Russian Empire. The putting down of the German revolution didn't help either. It was not really an ideal time to have initiated a revolution.

The rule of the last Tsar had events such as the suppression of the 1905 revolution and Bloody Sunday. It's important to understand the relations between the Tsar and the working masses leading to the overthrow of the monarchy.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

wow, Leicester is not far from where i grew up - it's a really multicultural place - awesome football club lately too hehe



well i'm not sure how the vote went in Leicester, but the Midlands as a whole weren't looking great i think, and sadly racism there can be pretty grim due to the very vocal extreme right contingent as always in a multicultural context



but it's hard to know without being there, and most people are lovely, just a few idiots spoiling it for everyone... there's a "safety pin" campaign happening in the UK at the moment where people are wearing a plain safety pin to show others that they are a "safe" person to sit next to on the train etc. - although i can't believe it has come to this



however, apparently travel warnings have been issued for Britain following Brexit and i've read reports about even tourists being attacked - i look visibly "foreign" in Britain and am holding off plans to visit family over there right now, but am hoping it will calm down soon... good luck with everything!! feel free to PM me if you want to chat about things!!

Leicester was a small dot of remain in a sea of leave. Where did you grow up?

I'm not too worried. I'll just play the card that I'm Northern Irish. It's totally messed up what is happening over there though.

 

[DaveC]

I'm going to keep this hidden, don't want to get too off topic in this thread.

Spoiler

The early years weren't easy by any stretch. It would have been unreasonable to imagine they could have been plain sailing. Coming through a revolution and then engaged in a civil war backed by foreign powers (which of course had a resulting effect on further years). Famines were a common occurrence in the Russian Empire. The putting down of the German revolution didn't help either. It was not really an ideal time to have initiated a revolution.

The rule of the last Tsar had events such as the suppression of the 1905 revolution and Bloody Sunday. It's important to understand the relations between the Tsar and the working masses leading to the overthrow of the monarchy.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Also, who called it?

Cameron with the checkmate on Boris Johnson. He's not running.

 

[Aygo]

But then again when has any people actually been better off after a revolution? Ask the French, the Russians, the Iranians, the Egyptians and the Syrians if their revolutions improved on their situations.

Ask portuguese if their lives got better or worse before the revolution(s).
Just a mere example. We can go back in History and travel the globe to find other good examples.

 

[DaveC]

i would suggest that cuba was better off from the perspective of the average citizen after castro booted batista, as long as that citizen wasn't involved with the batista government.

 

[BVS]

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