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Old 12-11-2011, 04:32 PM   #61
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Which part do you think has not worked out so well for Bono...the rock star thing or the activist thing?
I said nothing about it not working out for him. Bono has achieved a lot as both a musician and an activist, and, as already stated, I give him credit for it. Please stop putting words in my mouth!
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And he doesn't even belong in the same sentence w/the other "celebrities" you mentioned.
Er... yeah, I think that was for exaggerated effect. I am aware that Bono and Justin Bieber are not peers, thanks.
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And if he didn't spend time chatting up "dodgy politicians and right wingers", there would likely be a lot more dead Africans today.
That's assuming that the dodgy politicians and right wingers have taken action, entirely due to Bono's bending their ears, to save lives. It seems to me that Bono's successes with the One campaign have a lot to do with the raising of awareness and Bono's celebrity currency and little to do with right wing politicians. So, no, I don't think there would be a lot more "dead Africans" if Bono hadn't talked to Jesse Helms.
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So you decide what's more important...Bono catering to the political sensitivities of his fans, or saving lives?
Not funny. By reducing this interesting issue to a non-argumentative reactionary and extreme position, you've attempted to make your point in a faulty way.

Another way of taking your extreme argument to further examples is to discuss, say, racism in the United States and the modern Civil Rights movement. Are you going to apply your logic to every situation of racial oppression and de-humanization of racist, segregated states like the USA prior to 1960, and argue that the best thing for black activists to do would have always been to swim with the sharks? Would Malcolm X have been more effective if he had shaken hands and posed for photos with Lydon Johnson? Would Martin King have been effective if he had decided not to speak out against the Vietnam War -- thereby losing several of his supporters, as he did -- in order to gain easier access to dinners in the White House? Would it not have been better to preserve the myth of the "contented darkie house slave" rather than to have uprisings against injustice?

Yes, I'm making ridiculous, extreme examples, but that's exactly what you've done to me with your absurd question, above.

Obviously, what this essentially comes down to is this: Is there a point where those attempting to make change for the better need to draw a line in the sand that they will not cross? As regards Bono's activism (or anyone's), I would answer "yes" and perhaps you would answer "no". We simply have different perspectives, and there's probably no need to infer that I want to kill Africans.
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Old 12-11-2011, 04:46 PM   #62
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I haven't watched the interview yet, but this post is totally
thanks

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Joking aside, Bono is a fine diplomat.
agreed
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Old 12-11-2011, 05:08 PM   #63
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I said nothing about it not working out for him. Bono has achieved a lot as both a musician and an activist, and, as already stated, I give him credit for it. Please stop putting words in my mouth!

Er... yeah, I think that was for exaggerated effect. I am aware that Bono and Justin Bieber are not peers, thanks.

That's assuming that the dodgy politicians and right wingers have taken action, entirely due to Bono's bending their ears, to save lives. It seems to me that Bono's successes with the One campaign have a lot to do with the raising of awareness and Bono's celebrity currency and little to do with right wing politicians. So, no, I don't think there would be a lot more "dead Africans" if Bono hadn't talked to Jesse Helms.

Not funny. By reducing this interesting issue to a non-argumentative reactionary and extreme position, you've attempted to make your point in a faulty way.

Another way of taking your extreme argument to further examples is to discuss, say, racism in the United States and the modern Civil Rights movement. Are you going to apply your logic to every situation of racial oppression and de-humanization of racist, segregated states like the USA prior to 1960, and argue that the best thing for black activists to do would have always been to swim with the sharks? Would Malcolm X have been more effective if he had shaken hands and posed for photos with Lydon Johnson? Would Martin King have been effective if he had decided not to speak out against the Vietnam War -- thereby losing several of his supporters, as he did -- in order to gain easier access to dinners in the White House? Would it not have been better to preserve the myth of the "contented darkie house slave" rather than to have uprisings against injustice?

Yes, I'm making ridiculous, extreme examples, but that's exactly what you've done to me with your absurd question, above.

Obviously, what this essentially comes down to is this: Is there a point where those attempting to make change for the better need to draw a line in the sand that they will not cross? As regards Bono's activism (or anyone's), I would answer "yes" and perhaps you would answer "no". We simply have different perspectives, and there's probably no need to infer that I want to kill Africans.
I didn't imply that you wanted to kill Africans...and it's absurd to imply that I did, so let's get that out of the way right now. You inferred that (incorrectly).

You said you wanted Bono to not spend so much time talking to "dodgy politicians and right wingers". I merely pointed out that those talks likely...well, not likely, definitely, contributed to saving lives. George Bush, for example, one of the "dodgy politicians and right wingers" that Bono talked to spent more money on aid to Africa, an particular anti-virul drugs, than all his predecessors combined. I'd say that's "taking action." And he's specifically mentioned Bono's lobbying as contributing to this. That single fact saved more lives than anything the ONE campaign has done. There are countless organisations like ONE. It's a noble org, but Bono's direct lobbying of foreign leaders is FAR more effective than anything ONE has done. That's not my opinion, that's a fact. So, I have absolutely no problem w/saying that Bono was right to talk to Bush...or any pol who's going to help w/his cause.

Hmmm...and I never mentioned Jesse Helms, you did. That's what we call a straw man. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm not a Republican, and certainly not a Bush fan (and Huckabee frankly creeps me out), but that doesn't mean I can't recognise the logic of what Bono is doing...and I'm not so blindly partisan that I have a knee jerk reaction when Bono talks to someone I might disagree with. You certainly can't argue w/Bono's success.

If Bono only talked to pols his fans (i.e. you) approved of, he'd have a lot of doors shut to him, and would not be a tenth as effective as he is. He'd be a joke celebrity activists like scores of others.

Sorry, but my reasoning is completely sound, and there's no fault in it at all. We do agree, however, that your examples are, to use your words, "ridiculous" and "extreme", however, so there's no need for me to address those.

I think there are Bono hater threads elsewhere around the internet, perhaps you'd feel more comfortable there.
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Old 12-11-2011, 05:15 PM   #64
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It is possible to recognize qualities of your opponents without necessarily agreeing with everything about them.
I believe Bono once said (a long time ago) that no other political figure made him experience such intense anger as Ronald Reagan did. It's probably fair to say he despised Reagan at one point. Reagan did not seem to be merely an opponent to him, it went much deeper than that. Now he's said something complimentary about him. He may have said it in sincerity, or to curry favor with Huckabee, either way it makes my skin crawl a little. Some people call it "dancing with the devil" or "arse licking". I understand he wants political figures on both sides to continue taking meetings with him, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Old 12-11-2011, 05:20 PM   #65
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i get where B-man is coming from, but do sometimes wonder if he's risking his own credibility when he makes throwaway statements like that though... i think the statement was meaningless, but still people will try and read all kinds of crap into every word he says won't they...

i think he can be too nice to people sometimes and i think people also use him for their own agendas too... i mean, look at Glenn Beck - B-man appeared civil to him, posed for pics at Spider-Man for instance, then Beck, like an arsehole, goes and ridicules him later on his show...
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Old 12-11-2011, 05:38 PM   #66
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Huckabee makes me feel ill. I get why he does it, but it's a shame Bono has to stoop that low.
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Old 12-11-2011, 05:52 PM   #67
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As an a outsider to the US, I don't see Huckabee as a crazy and why people on the left don't embrace him. I see him as a Republican I would actually vote for. (If I were to vote Republican). What has he done that is so wrong?
For starters, the beginning of his show the night Bono was on, he was ranting against the morning after pill. He called it "abortion in a pill." He opposes abortion even in cases of rape or incest, and is in favor, literally, of declaring a fertilized egg a person. To be clear - that was recently a ballot proposal and he was in favor of it! It would have made a miscarriage cause for a murder investigation!
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Old 12-11-2011, 06:12 PM   #68
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Preacher stealing hearts on a cable show.
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Old 12-11-2011, 07:18 PM   #69
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... but still people will try and read all kinds of crap into every word he says won't they...
Just his fans. Or the people who hate him already anyway.

While I give Huckabee credit for being able to carry on a calm discussion in a field of people who prefer to yell, scorn, interrupt or fear-monger and call it conversation, his stance on certain issues overrides anything nice I have to say about him.

But it doesn't make me think any less of Bono. It's not a surprise that he'll talk to whomever to try and reach a new audience with what he obviously thinks is worth it.

While he may fear irrelevancy (ugh) with U2's music, he doesn't strike me as being all that concerned about who he might turn off by being so willing to talk to anyone who will help him reach a bigger audience with this message.

Good for him.
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Old 12-11-2011, 07:40 PM   #70
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Just his fans. Or the people who hate him already anyway.

While I give Huckabee credit for being able to carry on a calm discussion in a field of people who prefer to yell, scorn, interrupt or fear-monger and call it conversation, his stance on certain issues overrides anything nice I have to say about him.

But it doesn't make me think any less of Bono. It's not a surprise that he'll talk to whomever to try and reach a new audience with what he obviously thinks is worth it.

While he may fear irrelevancy (ugh) with U2's music, he doesn't strike me as being all that concerned about who he might turn off by being so willing to talk to anyone who will help him reach a bigger audience with this message.

Good for him.
Indeed.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:07 PM   #71
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The show is actually repeating right now. Bono's segment is still ahead.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:14 PM   #72
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Nick, your posts indicate that you are an intelligent person, so I assume you actually see further than your I'm-willing-to-debate-Bono's-methods-therefore-I-hate-him comment suggests. Obviously, I do not hate Bono (in fact, I love him). As I've now stated twice, I greatly respect his activism and his commitment to it.

You are quite clearly convinced that Bono is responsible for the saving of African lives. I infer that you know a lot more about the One Foundation (or whatever it's called) than I do, so you may be right about that. I hope you are. My own feeling is that it is not Bono per se that is responsible for the foundation's success as much as it is the dozens of (frankly, anonymous) men and women who have dedicated their lives and careers to activism. Whether or not the foundation has actually saved lives, I do not know, but yes, I suspect that is possible, indirectly at least. As for George Bush's advocacy of aid... I wouldn't necessarily take that at face value. These politicians know exactly how to "use" people like Bono for their photo-ops and headlines (Bono, of course, is well aware of this). For all we know, Bush had already mandated the aid offered and he wanted the Bono photo-op first by which to appeal to the younger, more "liberal" voters.


Anyway, the point I was trying to make above -- you seem to have glossed over it -- is whether 'tis better to stand up and say what's true all the time, or to make bed-fellows with people whose values you sharply disagree with for the common good. I can see the benefit of both approaches from the celebrity's perspective.

Take, for example, Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong. A black man born in turn-of-the-century New Orleans, he knew of no other way of life -- even to his last month alive -- than to have a white man looking out for him, to keep him safe. That was his business philosophy. Armstrong saw himself as an entertainer and not an artist, and therefore he was content to indulge whites' racist stereotypes onstage and in film. He was called out for it by the generation of blacks that followed him, and even his friends (like Billie Holiday) said he was a(n Uncle) Tom. So successful was he at not offending middle-class whites that the State Department, at the height of the Cold War, considered sending Armstrong to the USSR as a Goodwill Ambassador (i.e., he was a "safe" black entertainer). Then, in 1957, after the "Little Rock Nine" schoolchildren were attacked and assaulted for attempting to integrate their high school, Armstrong suddenly said it straight and called the President of the United States "two-faced" and lots of other names. Out of nowhere, Armstrong called it like it was. And people paid attention. Days later, Truman sent the National Guard to the South for the first time since the Civil War to protect those children.

The debate rages on -- did Armstrong do more for American society by being a family-oriented, white-friendly entertainer, who smiled onstage but had to sleep in school gymnasiums on tour because Southern hotels wouldn't let him enter, or did he do more by correcting the President and speaking the truth plainly to the press?

I don't know, but the fact that I'm willing to consider such issues doesn't mean I hate Bono.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:27 PM   #73
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Take, for example, Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong. A black man born in turn-of-the-century New Orleans, he knew of no other way of life -- even to his last month alive -- than to have a white man looking out for him, to keep him safe. That was his business philosophy. Armstrong saw himself as an entertainer and not an artist, and therefore he was content to indulge whites' racist stereotypes onstage and in film. He was called out for it by the generation of blacks that followed him, and even his friends (like Billie Holiday) said he was a(n Uncle) Tom. So successful was he at not offending middle-class whites that the State Department, at the height of the Cold War, considered sending Armstrong to the USSR as a Goodwill Ambassador (i.e., he was a "safe" black entertainer). Then, in 1957, after the "Little Rock Nine" schoolchildren were attacked and assaulted for attempting to integrate their high school, Armstrong suddenly said it straight and called the President of the United States "two-faced" and lots of other names. Out of nowhere, Armstrong called it like it was. And people paid attention. Days later, Ike Turner sent the National Guard to the South for the first time since the Civil War to protect those children.
Ike Turner??


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Old 12-11-2011, 08:31 PM   #74
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Panther leave the race examples off this discussion. Everyone is tired of Americas history.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:42 PM   #75
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Ike Turner??
Thanks; I fixed it.
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