Bono confronts Obama, America on Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[Kinsa]

*sigh*

Just so I understand, you are seriously claiming that a certain people have a right to land current day because they occupied the land one thousand years prior? Seriously?

I'll give you a hint, just to help you out - you would have a ton more credibility if you cited to the Balfour Declaration. But you probably need to go Google that right now, huh??

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

no. I remember what the Balfour Decleration is. when england signed the paper that granted Jews palestine.

and yes, if they were there first, I guess that does give them the right. How else?

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

But simply my point is they should just share the land.

 

[Kinsa]

But simply my point is they should just share the land.

I understand this, and my question to you is how is this to happen when one side has all the power???

 

[Strongbow]

Just so I understand, you are seriously claiming that a certain people have a right to land current day because they occupied the land one thousand years prior? Seriously?

I'll give you a hint, just to help you out - you would have a ton more credibility if you cited to the Balfour Declaration. But you probably need to go Google that right now, huh??

The area of Israel/Palestine belonged to the Ottoman Empire for four centuries. When the Ottoman Empire disolved at the end of World War I, the various people living on the land had the right to form their own countries. In 1947, the United Nations offered a two state solution for the area of Israel/Palestine. Israel accepted the peace deal, but the Palestinians did not. Months later when Israel declared its independence on the land that the UN offered under the deal, 5 Arab nations invaded Israel. This violent unprovoked invasion actually worsened the situation of the Palestinians. Since this time, the Arabs and Palestinians have engaged in efforts to wipe out Israel which have all failed and only put the Palestinians in a far more difficult position. The best deal the Palestinians could of ever had was the 1947 deal and they rejected it and chose 60 years of violence which has only made their situation worse while Israel developed into a first world country.

 

[anitram]

and yes, if they were there first, I guess that does give them the right. How else?

When are you vacating the Native American land on which you're living?

As for why they can't "share" the land, I'm assuming you're talking about a one-state solution That's just not viable, because presumably, Israel would have to bring the territories within its administrative reach and grant full citizenship rights to the Palestinians. This would immediately change the political system because you'd now have an additional 4 million or so citizens. Nevermind that in several decades, the Palestinians would be the majority of the country, and would at that time overwhelm the Israeli Jews politically. It is simply not what Israel would have any interest in doing.

 

[Kinsa]

The area of Israel/Palestine belonged to the Ottoman Empire for four centuries. When the Ottoman Empire disolved at the end of World War I, the various people living on the land had the right to form their own countries. In 1947, the United Nations offered a two state solution for the area of Israel/Palestine. Israel accepted the peace deal, but the Palestinians did not. Months later when Israel declared its independence on the land that the UN offered under the deal, 5 Arab nations invaded Israel. This violent unprovoked invasion actually worsened the situation of the Palestinians. Since this time, the Arabs and Palestinians have engaged in efforts to wipe out Israel which have all failed and only put the Palestinians in a far more difficult position. The best deal the Palestinians could of ever had was the 1947 deal and they rejected it and chose 60 years of violence which has only made their situation worse while Israel developed into a first world country.

I do have to say, what the heck does "Israel accepted the peace deal, the Palestinians did not" mean? What kind of "deal" is hey - move off your land and give it to someone else, even though you have done nothing wrong??? Would you like to enter that deal??) I'm really not going to go tit for tat with your "version" of history, as the facts of who did what and to whom is as disputed as the land itself today. Just please be aware that every sentence you wrote can be disputed with facts that contradict that version.

My real question is, and what has sparked Bono's comments today - is why does the US blindly support Israel's policy of occupation and oppression TODAY? Why is Israel allowed to pass arpartheid laws against Palestinians, continue to be in violation of numerous UN resolutions, and the US continues to give billions of taxpayer dollars to support this? Because the Palestinians should have accepted that great "deal" they were offered in 1947, and because they didn't, they deserve to be completely oppressed today?

 

[VintagePunk]

Just please be aware that every sentence you wrote can be disputed with facts that contradict that version.

You catch on fast, don't you?

 

[Strongbow]

I do have to say, what the heck does "Israel accepted the peace deal, the Palestinians did not" mean? What kind of "deal" is hey - move off your land and give it to someone else, even though you have done nothing wrong??? Would you like to enter that deal??) I'm really not going to go tit for tat with your "version" of history, as the facts of who did what and to whom is as disputed as the land itself today. Just please be aware that every sentence you wrote can be disputed with facts that contradict that version.

My real question is, and what has sparked Bono's comments today - is why does the US blindly support Israel's policy of occupation and oppression TODAY? Why is Israel allowed to pass arpartheid laws against Palestinians, continue to be in violation of numerous UN resolutions, and the US continues to give billions of taxpayer dollars to support this? Because the Palestinians should have accepted that great "deal" they were offered in 1947, and because they didn't, they deserve to be completely oppressed today?

The 1947 deal did not force anyone to move. It divided the area of Israel/Palestine equally between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The Palestinians would have had half of the area, plus Jerusalem would have been a UN city under neither sides control.

Israel was forced to take the "occupied territories" in 1967 to prevent Arab forces from overrunning Israel. They also took large area's of Egypt, and the Golan Heights. These area's were taken in order to safe guard Israel's security which was threatened by the Arab countries which did not recognize Israel's right to exist. Israel later gave Egypt back its land once Egypt recognized Israel's right to exist. Israel is currently willing to give back the other occupied territories provided Israel's right to exist is recognized by the other countries/groups and the safety and security of its people is insured. Israel is one of the only true Democracies in the region and has a far better human rights record than the Arab nations to date.

Also, the Palestinians are not the totally oppressed people you make them out to be. Based on the latest Human Development Index, Palestinians rank #106 in the world in standard of living right behind people who live in Syria but ahead of people who live in Vietnam, India, and Egypt.

Statistics - Human Development Reports (UNDP)

Israel offered the Palestinians 95% of what they wanted back in the 1990s and they rejected the deal. Just another example of the Palestinians choosing violence while Israel chose a peace deal. There will never be an independent Palestinian state until they are actually willing to accept some form of a peace deal. To date, they have rejected every major one.

 

[davedge02]

They cannot simply share the land because Hamas says in its own charter that their goal is to destroy Israel and murder the Jews. How can Israel be expected to negotiate peace with people who reject peace in favor of murdering civilians? Most reasonable people agree that there should be 2 states, one for Jews and one for Palestianians. Hamas favors a 1 state solution-the destruction of Israel with a fundamentalist Islamic state in its place. The Palestinians have been offered their own state as recently as 2001. Arafat declined even though he would have gotten 98% of the land that the Palestinians were asking for. In 1948, the UN decided to split the land into 2 states. The Jews would get the land that was predominantly Jewish and the Arabs would get the land that was mostly Arab. The Jews accepted and the Arabs declined. The could have solved the whole conflict right there but they just could not stand to have Jews in the middle east. And by the way, there is a huge difference between targeting civilians-as Hamas does, and targeting terrorists-as Israel does. Hamas has been shooting missles and sending suicide bombers into Israel for decades now. Israel doesn't respond by sending suicide bombers and rockets into schools, restaurants and homes like the Palestinian terrorists do. The first rule of terrorism is to murder civilians and then cry to the world when they retaliate. Hamas are masters of this and too many people fall for their crap. The Palestinian people ARE suffering and I feel awful for them. But it is Hamas' fault and not Israel's.

 

[davedge02]

Israel did not force the Palestinians to leave. Mahmmoud Abbas admits that the Palestinians left because the Arab governments wanted to clear the land so the Arab armies could murder the Jews. The Palestinians who did not leave are now FULL CITIZENS of Israel who enjoy FAR more rights than Arabs do in Arab countries. There is a double standard in that the world criticizes Israel for its treatment of the Arabs (which is unjustified) while they don't say a word about Jordan (which does not grant citizenship to Jews) or Saudi Arabia (which wont even allow a Jew into the
kindgdom).
Anyway--can't wait for tomorrow.

 

[Kinsa]

Israel did not force the Palestinians to leave. Mahmmoud Abbas admits that the Palestinians left because the Arab governments wanted to clear the land so the Arab armies could murder the Jews. The Palestinians who did not leave are now FULL CITIZENS of Israel who enjoy FAR more rights than Arabs do in Arab countries. There is a double standard in that the world criticizes Israel for its treatment of the Arabs (which is unjustified) while they don't say a word about Jordan (which does not grant citizenship to Jews) or Saudi Arabia (which wont even allow a Jew into the
kindgdom).
Anyway--can't wait for tomorrow.

That's a funny story - you should tell it to my Palestinian friend (he is now in his 70's) who was forced out of his home at gunpoint by the Israeli military (he was a young boy, and says he remembers it as clear as day because they were all loaded onto a truck and his mother literally grabbed the pot of chicken she was cooking because she had no idea where they were going and wanted to make sure her children had food.) He was born in Haifa. He was removed to the area that is now the West Bank.

I swore to myself I wasn't going to get sucked in, but I can't let this pass unchallenged - Arab Israelis do not have equal rights to Jewish Israelis, to start with, please see:

Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, which prohibits the acqusition of Israeli citizenship or residency by a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza Strip via marriage if they marry and Israeli Arab. The law does allow children from such marriages to live in Israel until age 12, at which age the law requires them to emigrate. How nice and equal.

The Israeli identity card indicates whether holders are Jewish or not by adding the person's Hebrew date of birth. The ID system determines where Arabs and Jews are permitted to live, access to some government welfare programs, and how they are likely to be treated by civil servants, etc.

Land distribution - 93% of the land inside Israel is not held by private owners and is managed as public property. Arab-Israelis are not entitled to this land.
The land distribution policy is how Israel has been able to continue building settlements which are in clear violation of UN resolutions.

In addition, Arab Israelis travel and movement is severely restricted. Do I need to even mention "the Wall"?


And now I want to because I actually got sucked into something I swore I wouldn't!

 

[Kinsa]

You catch on fast, don't you?

Apparently not! LMAO

 

[Irvine511]

i just want to point out the vast gulf of difference between myself and between a certain other poster who someone said i was in total agreement with and was echoing in my various posts in that other thread. while i support the right for Israel to exist and to defend itself and i know why Israel does what it does, and while i abhor Hamas, i also abhor the suffering of the Palestinian people and am certain that the present situation is absolutely unacceptable and look forward to a two state solution. i do not, have not, and will not, label the Palestinians as lazy whiners simply because by one measure they might live better than, say, the vietnamese. standard of living means NOTHING when a shell can hit your bedroom and catch your two daughters unaware and sever their heads from their bodies. and, yes, that goes for Israelis under fire from rockets. i mourn for 10 Israelis, and i mourn for 1,000 Palestinians. and i don't know why the extremes of this debate dictate the discourse, and why one extreme views any sort of dissent from their position as de facto unblinking support for the other extreme. it's like the abortion debate. and, like the abortion debate, the Israelis and the Palestinians are actually stand-ins for much deeper issues that grip the globe.

and in the meanwhile, innocent people die.

just saying.

 

[maycocksean]

i just want to point out the vast gulf of difference between myself and between a certain other poster who someone said i was in total agreement with and was echoing in my various posts in that other thread. while i support the right for Israel to exist and to defend itself and i know why Israel does what it does, and while i abhor Hamas, i also abhor the suffering of the Palestinian people and am certain that the present situation is absolutely unacceptable and look forward to a two state solution. i do not, have not, and will not, label the Palestinians as lazy whiners simply because by one measure they might live better than, say, the vietnamese. standard of living means NOTHING when a shell can hit your bedroom and catch your two daughters unaware and sever their heads from their bodies. and, yes, that goes for Israelis under fire from rockets. i mourn for 10 Israelis, and i mourn for 1,000 Palestinians. and i don't know why the extremes of this debate dictate the discourse, and why one extreme views any sort of dissent from their position as de facto unblinking support for the other extreme. it's like the abortion debate. and, like the abortion debate, the Israelis and the Palestinians are actually stand-ins for much deeper issues that grip the globe.

and in the meanwhile, innocent people die.

just saying.

And saying it well, I might add.

 

[maycocksean]

In 1947, the United Nations offered a two state solution for the area of Israel/Palestine.

It divided the area of Israel/Palestine equally between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Why is it that I have this sense that you're glibly glossing something over here?

How did all the Jews and Arabs living in Israel/Palestine work things out before the UN got involved? What was the system of government and/or landsharing these two groups had in place to begin with and why couldn't they just continue with that?

 

[AliEnvy]

the Israelis and the Palestinians are actually stand-ins for much deeper issues that grip the globe.

and in the meanwhile, innocent people die.

Indeed. Ideology comes in many destructive forms and often works on very subtle, unconscious levels.

Tolerance is very threatening to people who have certain beliefs about what it means to win and what it means to feel secure.

 

[BostonAnne]

I'm glad Bono mentioned both sides. The only way the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has any prayer of being resolved is if both sides acknowledge each others rights to exist. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and their frequent attacks on Israel and desire to wipe it off the face of the earth is wrong. Many average Israeli citizens have no real malice towards the Palestinians and vice versa. However, the Israeli government's blockade of proper food, water, medicine etc. into Gaza is just as wrong. Their recent attacks on Gaza that killed millions of innocent Palestinians are wrong. Hamas' attacks on Israel that led to Israel's attacks on Palestine were wrong as well. The majority of U.S. politicians' (at least publicly) one-sided view of the conflict is wrong as well. I believe Israel and the Jewish people in general have suffered harsh and unnecessary persecution throughout their history. However, Israel have perpetuated harsh and immoral actions against Palestine as well, and they deserve to be called out for them, just as we call Palestine out for theirs. Until and unless, both sides can swallow their pride and agree to a two state solution, there will be no peace in Palestine. This will never happen if one side (Israel) is being treated as though it is always in the right and Palestine is being looked at as always in the wrong.

Great post U2isthebest!

 

[ramblin rose]

I for one was thrilled Bono seized his chance - I have always wondered why he hasn't really said anything directly about Palestine before (or maybe he has and I missed it?) You could tell by the look on Obama's face he was less than thrilled - typical US govt response, we wouldn't want to look like we are criticizing Israel as they massacre innocent civilians, right??

You do realize that Obama had people at the rehearsal and was most likely told exactly what had been rehearsed (at least this is what I was told by someone who is working in his transition and who was at the rehearsal).

What was his reaction supposed to be, laughing?

 

[MadForIt]

I didnt realise Paul Gascoigne owned a country?

those were the days

gazza at euro 96

 

[Kinsa]

You do realize that Obama had people at the rehearsal and was most likely told exactly what had been rehearsed (at least this is what I was told by someone who is working in his transition and who was at the rehearsal).

What was his reaction supposed to be, laughing?

Of course not. But did you notice him rocking out to everyone else, and him sitting completely stoned face/pissed during Pride? Bizarre. And by the way, HBO edited out his reactions in the replays.

 

[davedge02]

If anyone was forced out of their home, it was the exception rather than the rule and I am disgusted by it. But don't forget that before Israel was even created, it was the goal of the Palestinians to drive the Jews out of the area. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's official policy was that it was against Islamic law for even 1 inch of Palestine to be controlled by a Jew and he was quite fond of preaching "Kill the Jews" and "We will the drink the blood of the Jews". He organized massacres against defensless Jews and even threw mule shit on Jews praying at the Western Wall. In contrast, the Jews only wanted control of the land that was predominantly Jewish. They did not want to control Arab lands and they agreed to the UN partition. If you want to blame anyone for this conflict, blame the Arabs for not accepting. If Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq hadn't invaded Israel on the first day of its existence, there would have been no war and the Palestinians could have stayed in their homes. Do not blame the Jews for defending their lives and their people from extermination.

 

[AliEnvy]

and him sitting completely stoned face/pissed during Pride? Bizarre.

In all fairness, who's to say the sombre look was anger?

All the trailblazers Obama is compared to in all this hype were assassinated. How are we supposed to know what's going through his head in the moment when he's listening to one of the most powerful reminders of that?

 

[davedge02]

Why is it that I have this sense that you're glibly glossing something over here?

How did all the Jews and Arabs living in Israel/Palestine work things out before the UN got involved? What was the system of government and/or landsharing these two groups had in place to begin with and why couldn't they just continue with that?

He isnt' glossing over anything. In 1947, the UN decided to split the land into 2 states. The areas that were overwhelmingly Jewish would be a Jewish state and the land that was predominantly Palestinian would become a Palestinian state. The Jews accepted while the Arabs declined, invaded and massacred entire villages of Jews even after the war had ended. These are historical facts that cannot be challenged.

Before Israel became a state, it was a British territory. There were some cities that were ethnically mixed but in most cases there were Jewish cities and Palestinian cities. During WWII, the Palestinians openly sided with the Nazis and supported their genocide against the Jews and they had plans to build a concentration camp in Nablus. Palestinians had been murdering Jews long before Israel became a state.

 

[Strongbow]

That's a funny story - you should tell it to my Palestinian friend (he is now in his 70's) who was forced out of his home at gunpoint by the Israeli military (he was a young boy, and says he remembers it as clear as day because they were all loaded onto a truck and his mother literally grabbed the pot of chicken she was cooking because she had no idea where they were going and wanted to make sure her children had food.) He was born in Haifa. He was removed to the area that is now the West Bank.

I swore to myself I wasn't going to get sucked in, but I can't let this pass unchallenged - Arab Israelis do not have equal rights to Jewish Israelis, to start with, please see:

Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, which prohibits the acqusition of Israeli citizenship or residency by a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza Strip via marriage if they marry and Israeli Arab. The law does allow children from such marriages to live in Israel until age 12, at which age the law requires them to emigrate. How nice and equal.

The Israeli identity card indicates whether holders are Jewish or not by adding the person's Hebrew date of birth. The ID system determines where Arabs and Jews are permitted to live, access to some government welfare programs, and how they are likely to be treated by civil servants, etc.

Land distribution - 93% of the land inside Israel is not held by private owners and is managed as public property. Arab-Israelis are not entitled to this land.
The land distribution policy is how Israel has been able to continue building settlements which are in clear violation of UN resolutions.

In addition, Arab Israelis travel and movement is severely restricted. Do I need to even mention "the Wall"?


And now I want to because I actually got sucked into something I swore I wouldn't!

Palestinians are NOT Arab Israelis. Arab Israelis live and were born in Israel, NOT the West Bank Or Gaza.

 

[JCOSTER]

Does it really matter, people are people....
I got so many phone calls on what Bono said this morning my head is spinning!
All Bono said basically that Israel and Palestine need peace and that they too are included in the thoughts of MLK's speech.

 

[Strongbow]

Why is it that I have this sense that you're glibly glossing something over here?

How did all the Jews and Arabs living in Israel/Palestine work things out before the UN got involved? What was the system of government and/or landsharing these two groups had in place to begin with and why couldn't they just continue with that?

The British controlled the area after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I until 1947. Jewish emmigration to the area was both allowed and restricted in the 30 years between the end of the Ottoman Empire and the formation of the state of Israel. The British tried to find a solution to the problem of Israel/Palestine, but the Palestinians would not budge insisting that there could not be ANY Jewish state in the area of Israel/Palestine.

Jews living in Israel at the time, as well as those that emmigrated to Israel in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, helped to develop the area and bring a level of prosperity the area had not seen in recent history. Many Arabs who owned land in the area, but did not live there had been selling this land to Jews from Europe for large profits for several decades before Israel was formed. In addition, there had always been a Jewish community living in the area continiously for centuries even though it was until the late 19th century very small.

But from 1918 until 1948, there was no official state of any kind in the area of Israel/Palestine. Israel's formation in 1948 was the first official independent state of any kind since the Ottoman Empire owned the land in 1918. The Palestinians were offered a state as well, but rejected the offer and insisted on wiping out the newly formed Jewish state with their Arab Allies.

 

[Kinsa]

If anyone was forced out of their home, it was the exception rather than the rule and I am disgusted by it. But don't forget that before Israel was even created, it was the goal of the Palestinians to drive the Jews out of the area. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's official policy was that it was against Islamic law for even 1 inch of Palestine to be controlled by a Jew and he was quite fond of preaching "Kill the Jews" and "We will the drink the blood of the Jews". He organized massacres against defensless Jews and even threw mule shit on Jews praying at the Western Wall. In contrast, the Jews only wanted control of the land that was predominantly Jewish. They did not want to control Arab lands and they agreed to the UN partition. If you want to blame anyone for this conflict, blame the Arabs for not accepting. If Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq hadn't invaded Israel on the first day of its existence, there would have been no war and the Palestinians could have stayed in their homes. Do not blame the Jews for defending their lives and their people from extermination.

The fact you start you paragraph with "If anyone was forced out of their home", like you have no comprehension of history, and that up to one million Palestinians were forceably removed from their homes, makes everything else you state completely in question.

Please, at least recognize actual history before you put forth your views - Maybe you need to do a little reading before painting the Arabs as evil and the Israelis as innocents. Remember, no matter how hard you don't want to acknowledge it, there are actually two sides to every story.

Ever heard of the Dier Yassin massacre? Apparently not, since you aren't even sure a single Palestinian was removed from their home!

Here is the UN website for Palestine - lots of actual, verified, information here

Permanent Observer Mission of Palestine to the United Nations

This page is a concise history of the establishment of Israel

Permanent Observer Mission of Palestine to the United Nations

 

[Strongbow]

i just want to point out the vast gulf of difference between myself and between a certain other poster who someone said i was in total agreement with and was echoing in my various posts in that other thread. while i support the right for Israel to exist and to defend itself and i know why Israel does what it does, and while i abhor Hamas, i also abhor the suffering of the Palestinian people and am certain that the present situation is absolutely unacceptable and look forward to a two state solution.

I think everyone abhors the suffering that the Palestinians have gone through now and over the past 60 years and agrees there should be a two state solution, except extremist in the Occupied Territories and Israel. Unfortunately, the extremist are in control in Gaza and have strong support on the West Bank.

A two state solution was offered in 1947. Israel accepted it, but unfortunately the Palestinians rejected it.

i do not, have not, and will not, label the Palestinians as lazy whiners simply because by one measure they might live better than, say, the vietnamese. standard of living means NOTHING when a shell can hit your bedroom and catch your two daughters unaware and sever their heads from their bodies.

Its a fact that Palestinians in the Occupied territories enjoy a standard of living that is better than or equal to people living in Syria, Egypt, and Vietnam. That does not dismiss the violence caused by the conflict, but its still a fact.

While the Palestinian Occupied Territories are number #106 in the world in standard of living, they are at #64 when just looking at life expectancy from birth which is 73.1. That puts the Palestinian Occupied Territories, despite the conflict, ahead of such countries as Brazil, china and Russia when it comes to life Expectancy. The United States by contrast is at #31 in Life Expectancy from birth at 78.

 

[Kinsa]

Palestinians are NOT Arab Israelis. Arab Israelis live and were born in Israel, NOT the West Bank Or Gaza.

HUH??? So what are the Arab-Israeils? Not Palestinians? Arab-Israelis are Palestinians who happen to have been born in Israel, or Palestinians who were living in a land that was partitioned and deemed to belong to Israel. They are all the same people ethnically, culturally, etc, just artificial borders make a distinction without a difference between which passport (or, in the case of the Palestinians living in the West Bank/Gaza, no passport) they carry. They are the same people, no matter what you want to call them.