Bono confronts Obama, America on Israeli-Palestinian conflict - Page 8 - U2 Feedback

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Old 01-19-2009, 06:16 AM   #106
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In 1947, the United Nations offered a two state solution for the area of Israel/Palestine.
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It divided the area of Israel/Palestine equally between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Why is it that I have this sense that you're glibly glossing something over here?

How did all the Jews and Arabs living in Israel/Palestine work things out before the UN got involved? What was the system of government and/or landsharing these two groups had in place to begin with and why couldn't they just continue with that?
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Old 01-19-2009, 08:33 AM   #107
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the Israelis and the Palestinians are actually stand-ins for much deeper issues that grip the globe.

and in the meanwhile, innocent people die.
Indeed. Ideology comes in many destructive forms and often works on very subtle, unconscious levels.

Tolerance is very threatening to people who have certain beliefs about what it means to win and what it means to feel secure.
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Old 01-19-2009, 09:00 AM   #108
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I'm glad Bono mentioned both sides. The only way the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has any prayer of being resolved is if both sides acknowledge each others rights to exist. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and their frequent attacks on Israel and desire to wipe it off the face of the earth is wrong. Many average Israeli citizens have no real malice towards the Palestinians and vice versa. However, the Israeli government's blockade of proper food, water, medicine etc. into Gaza is just as wrong. Their recent attacks on Gaza that killed millions of innocent Palestinians are wrong. Hamas' attacks on Israel that led to Israel's attacks on Palestine were wrong as well. The majority of U.S. politicians' (at least publicly) one-sided view of the conflict is wrong as well. I believe Israel and the Jewish people in general have suffered harsh and unnecessary persecution throughout their history. However, Israel have perpetuated harsh and immoral actions against Palestine as well, and they deserve to be called out for them, just as we call Palestine out for theirs. Until and unless, both sides can swallow their pride and agree to a two state solution, there will be no peace in Palestine. This will never happen if one side (Israel) is being treated as though it is always in the right and Palestine is being looked at as always in the wrong.
Great post U2isthebest!
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Old 01-19-2009, 09:55 AM   #109
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I for one was thrilled Bono seized his chance - I have always wondered why he hasn't really said anything directly about Palestine before (or maybe he has and I missed it?) You could tell by the look on Obama's face he was less than thrilled - typical US govt response, we wouldn't want to look like we are criticizing Israel as they massacre innocent civilians, right??
You do realize that Obama had people at the rehearsal and was most likely told exactly what had been rehearsed (at least this is what I was told by someone who is working in his transition and who was at the rehearsal).

What was his reaction supposed to be, laughing?
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Old 01-19-2009, 10:17 AM   #110
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I didnt realise Paul Gascoigne owned a country?

those were the days

gazza at euro 96
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:10 AM   #111
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You do realize that Obama had people at the rehearsal and was most likely told exactly what had been rehearsed (at least this is what I was told by someone who is working in his transition and who was at the rehearsal).

What was his reaction supposed to be, laughing?
Of course not. But did you notice him rocking out to everyone else, and him sitting completely stoned face/pissed during Pride? Bizarre. And by the way, HBO edited out his reactions in the replays.
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:25 AM   #112
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If anyone was forced out of their home, it was the exception rather than the rule and I am disgusted by it. But don't forget that before Israel was even created, it was the goal of the Palestinians to drive the Jews out of the area. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's official policy was that it was against Islamic law for even 1 inch of Palestine to be controlled by a Jew and he was quite fond of preaching "Kill the Jews" and "We will the drink the blood of the Jews". He organized massacres against defensless Jews and even threw mule shit on Jews praying at the Western Wall. In contrast, the Jews only wanted control of the land that was predominantly Jewish. They did not want to control Arab lands and they agreed to the UN partition. If you want to blame anyone for this conflict, blame the Arabs for not accepting. If Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq hadn't invaded Israel on the first day of its existence, there would have been no war and the Palestinians could have stayed in their homes. Do not blame the Jews for defending their lives and their people from extermination.
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:29 AM   #113
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and him sitting completely stoned face/pissed during Pride? Bizarre.
In all fairness, who's to say the sombre look was anger?

All the trailblazers Obama is compared to in all this hype were assassinated. How are we supposed to know what's going through his head in the moment when he's listening to one of the most powerful reminders of that?
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:49 AM   #114
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Why is it that I have this sense that you're glibly glossing something over here?

How did all the Jews and Arabs living in Israel/Palestine work things out before the UN got involved? What was the system of government and/or landsharing these two groups had in place to begin with and why couldn't they just continue with that?
He isnt' glossing over anything. In 1947, the UN decided to split the land into 2 states. The areas that were overwhelmingly Jewish would be a Jewish state and the land that was predominantly Palestinian would become a Palestinian state. The Jews accepted while the Arabs declined, invaded and massacred entire villages of Jews even after the war had ended. These are historical facts that cannot be challenged.

Before Israel became a state, it was a British territory. There were some cities that were ethnically mixed but in most cases there were Jewish cities and Palestinian cities. During WWII, the Palestinians openly sided with the Nazis and supported their genocide against the Jews and they had plans to build a concentration camp in Nablus. Palestinians had been murdering Jews long before Israel became a state.
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Old 01-19-2009, 12:49 PM   #115
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That's a funny story - you should tell it to my Palestinian friend (he is now in his 70's) who was forced out of his home at gunpoint by the Israeli military (he was a young boy, and says he remembers it as clear as day because they were all loaded onto a truck and his mother literally grabbed the pot of chicken she was cooking because she had no idea where they were going and wanted to make sure her children had food.) He was born in Haifa. He was removed to the area that is now the West Bank.

I swore to myself I wasn't going to get sucked in, but I can't let this pass unchallenged - Arab Israelis do not have equal rights to Jewish Israelis, to start with, please see:

Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, which prohibits the acqusition of Israeli citizenship or residency by a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza Strip via marriage if they marry and Israeli Arab. The law does allow children from such marriages to live in Israel until age 12, at which age the law requires them to emigrate. How nice and equal.

The Israeli identity card indicates whether holders are Jewish or not by adding the person's Hebrew date of birth. The ID system determines where Arabs and Jews are permitted to live, access to some government welfare programs, and how they are likely to be treated by civil servants, etc.

Land distribution - 93% of the land inside Israel is not held by private owners and is managed as public property. Arab-Israelis are not entitled to this land.
The land distribution policy is how Israel has been able to continue building settlements which are in clear violation of UN resolutions.

In addition, Arab Israelis travel and movement is severely restricted. Do I need to even mention "the Wall"?


And now I want to because I actually got sucked into something I swore I wouldn't!
Palestinians are NOT Arab Israelis. Arab Israelis live and were born in Israel, NOT the West Bank Or Gaza.
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Old 01-19-2009, 12:52 PM   #116
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Does it really matter, people are people....
I got so many phone calls on what Bono said this morning my head is spinning!
All Bono said basically that Israel and Palestine need peace and that they too are included in the thoughts of MLK's speech.
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:04 PM   #117
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Why is it that I have this sense that you're glibly glossing something over here?

How did all the Jews and Arabs living in Israel/Palestine work things out before the UN got involved? What was the system of government and/or landsharing these two groups had in place to begin with and why couldn't they just continue with that?
The British controlled the area after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I until 1947. Jewish emmigration to the area was both allowed and restricted in the 30 years between the end of the Ottoman Empire and the formation of the state of Israel. The British tried to find a solution to the problem of Israel/Palestine, but the Palestinians would not budge insisting that there could not be ANY Jewish state in the area of Israel/Palestine.

Jews living in Israel at the time, as well as those that emmigrated to Israel in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, helped to develop the area and bring a level of prosperity the area had not seen in recent history. Many Arabs who owned land in the area, but did not live there had been selling this land to Jews from Europe for large profits for several decades before Israel was formed. In addition, there had always been a Jewish community living in the area continiously for centuries even though it was until the late 19th century very small.

But from 1918 until 1948, there was no official state of any kind in the area of Israel/Palestine. Israel's formation in 1948 was the first official independent state of any kind since the Ottoman Empire owned the land in 1918. The Palestinians were offered a state as well, but rejected the offer and insisted on wiping out the newly formed Jewish state with their Arab Allies.
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:24 PM   #118
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If anyone was forced out of their home, it was the exception rather than the rule and I am disgusted by it. But don't forget that before Israel was even created, it was the goal of the Palestinians to drive the Jews out of the area. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's official policy was that it was against Islamic law for even 1 inch of Palestine to be controlled by a Jew and he was quite fond of preaching "Kill the Jews" and "We will the drink the blood of the Jews". He organized massacres against defensless Jews and even threw mule shit on Jews praying at the Western Wall. In contrast, the Jews only wanted control of the land that was predominantly Jewish. They did not want to control Arab lands and they agreed to the UN partition. If you want to blame anyone for this conflict, blame the Arabs for not accepting. If Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq hadn't invaded Israel on the first day of its existence, there would have been no war and the Palestinians could have stayed in their homes. Do not blame the Jews for defending their lives and their people from extermination.
The fact you start you paragraph with "If anyone was forced out of their home", like you have no comprehension of history, and that up to one million Palestinians were forceably removed from their homes, makes everything else you state completely in question.

Please, at least recognize actual history before you put forth your views - Maybe you need to do a little reading before painting the Arabs as evil and the Israelis as innocents. Remember, no matter how hard you don't want to acknowledge it, there are actually two sides to every story.

Ever heard of the Dier Yassin massacre? Apparently not, since you aren't even sure a single Palestinian was removed from their home!

Here is the UN website for Palestine - lots of actual, verified, information here

Permanent Observer Mission of Palestine to the United Nations

This page is a concise history of the establishment of Israel

Permanent Observer Mission of Palestine to the United Nations
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:25 PM   #119
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i just want to point out the vast gulf of difference between myself and between a certain other poster who someone said i was in total agreement with and was echoing in my various posts in that other thread. while i support the right for Israel to exist and to defend itself and i know why Israel does what it does, and while i abhor Hamas, i also abhor the suffering of the Palestinian people and am certain that the present situation is absolutely unacceptable and look forward to a two state solution.
I think everyone abhors the suffering that the Palestinians have gone through now and over the past 60 years and agrees there should be a two state solution, except extremist in the Occupied Territories and Israel. Unfortunately, the extremist are in control in Gaza and have strong support on the West Bank.

A two state solution was offered in 1947. Israel accepted it, but unfortunately the Palestinians rejected it.


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i do not, have not, and will not, label the Palestinians as lazy whiners simply because by one measure they might live better than, say, the vietnamese. standard of living means NOTHING when a shell can hit your bedroom and catch your two daughters unaware and sever their heads from their bodies.
Its a fact that Palestinians in the Occupied territories enjoy a standard of living that is better than or equal to people living in Syria, Egypt, and Vietnam. That does not dismiss the violence caused by the conflict, but its still a fact.

While the Palestinian Occupied Territories are number #106 in the world in standard of living, they are at #64 when just looking at life expectancy from birth which is 73.1. That puts the Palestinian Occupied Territories, despite the conflict, ahead of such countries as Brazil, china and Russia when it comes to life Expectancy. The United States by contrast is at #31 in Life Expectancy from birth at 78.
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:30 PM   #120
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Palestinians are NOT Arab Israelis. Arab Israelis live and were born in Israel, NOT the West Bank Or Gaza.
HUH??? So what are the Arab-Israeils? Not Palestinians? Arab-Israelis are Palestinians who happen to have been born in Israel, or Palestinians who were living in a land that was partitioned and deemed to belong to Israel. They are all the same people ethnically, culturally, etc, just artificial borders make a distinction without a difference between which passport (or, in the case of the Palestinians living in the West Bank/Gaza, no passport) they carry. They are the same people, no matter what you want to call them.
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