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Old 01-18-2009, 10:35 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
*sigh*

Just so I understand, you are seriously claiming that a certain people have a right to land current day because they occupied the land one thousand years prior? Seriously?

I'll give you a hint, just to help you out - you would have a ton more credibility if you cited to the Balfour Declaration. But you probably need to go Google that right now, huh??
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Old 01-18-2009, 10:39 PM   #92
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no. I remember what the Balfour Decleration is. when england signed the paper that granted Jews palestine.

and yes, if they were there first, I guess that does give them the right. How else?
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Old 01-18-2009, 10:40 PM   #93
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But simply my point is they should just share the land.
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Old 01-18-2009, 10:47 PM   #94
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But simply my point is they should just share the land.

I understand this, and my question to you is how is this to happen when one side has all the power???
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Old 01-18-2009, 10:51 PM   #95
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Just so I understand, you are seriously claiming that a certain people have a right to land current day because they occupied the land one thousand years prior? Seriously?

I'll give you a hint, just to help you out - you would have a ton more credibility if you cited to the Balfour Declaration. But you probably need to go Google that right now, huh??
The area of Israel/Palestine belonged to the Ottoman Empire for four centuries. When the Ottoman Empire disolved at the end of World War I, the various people living on the land had the right to form their own countries. In 1947, the United Nations offered a two state solution for the area of Israel/Palestine. Israel accepted the peace deal, but the Palestinians did not. Months later when Israel declared its independence on the land that the UN offered under the deal, 5 Arab nations invaded Israel. This violent unprovoked invasion actually worsened the situation of the Palestinians. Since this time, the Arabs and Palestinians have engaged in efforts to wipe out Israel which have all failed and only put the Palestinians in a far more difficult position. The best deal the Palestinians could of ever had was the 1947 deal and they rejected it and chose 60 years of violence which has only made their situation worse while Israel developed into a first world country.
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Old 01-18-2009, 11:03 PM   #96
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and yes, if they were there first, I guess that does give them the right. How else?
When are you vacating the Native American land on which you're living?

As for why they can't "share" the land, I'm assuming you're talking about a one-state solution That's just not viable, because presumably, Israel would have to bring the territories within its administrative reach and grant full citizenship rights to the Palestinians. This would immediately change the political system because you'd now have an additional 4 million or so citizens. Nevermind that in several decades, the Palestinians would be the majority of the country, and would at that time overwhelm the Israeli Jews politically. It is simply not what Israel would have any interest in doing.
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Old 01-18-2009, 11:04 PM   #97
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The area of Israel/Palestine belonged to the Ottoman Empire for four centuries. When the Ottoman Empire disolved at the end of World War I, the various people living on the land had the right to form their own countries. In 1947, the United Nations offered a two state solution for the area of Israel/Palestine. Israel accepted the peace deal, but the Palestinians did not. Months later when Israel declared its independence on the land that the UN offered under the deal, 5 Arab nations invaded Israel. This violent unprovoked invasion actually worsened the situation of the Palestinians. Since this time, the Arabs and Palestinians have engaged in efforts to wipe out Israel which have all failed and only put the Palestinians in a far more difficult position. The best deal the Palestinians could of ever had was the 1947 deal and they rejected it and chose 60 years of violence which has only made their situation worse while Israel developed into a first world country.
I do have to say, what the heck does "Israel accepted the peace deal, the Palestinians did not" mean? What kind of "deal" is hey - move off your land and give it to someone else, even though you have done nothing wrong??? Would you like to enter that deal??) I'm really not going to go tit for tat with your "version" of history, as the facts of who did what and to whom is as disputed as the land itself today. Just please be aware that every sentence you wrote can be disputed with facts that contradict that version.

My real question is, and what has sparked Bono's comments today - is why does the US blindly support Israel's policy of occupation and oppression TODAY? Why is Israel allowed to pass arpartheid laws against Palestinians, continue to be in violation of numerous UN resolutions, and the US continues to give billions of taxpayer dollars to support this? Because the Palestinians should have accepted that great "deal" they were offered in 1947, and because they didn't, they deserve to be completely oppressed today?
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Old 01-18-2009, 11:09 PM   #98
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Just please be aware that every sentence you wrote can be disputed with facts that contradict that version.
You catch on fast, don't you?
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Old 01-18-2009, 11:26 PM   #99
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I do have to say, what the heck does "Israel accepted the peace deal, the Palestinians did not" mean? What kind of "deal" is hey - move off your land and give it to someone else, even though you have done nothing wrong??? Would you like to enter that deal??) I'm really not going to go tit for tat with your "version" of history, as the facts of who did what and to whom is as disputed as the land itself today. Just please be aware that every sentence you wrote can be disputed with facts that contradict that version.

My real question is, and what has sparked Bono's comments today - is why does the US blindly support Israel's policy of occupation and oppression TODAY? Why is Israel allowed to pass arpartheid laws against Palestinians, continue to be in violation of numerous UN resolutions, and the US continues to give billions of taxpayer dollars to support this? Because the Palestinians should have accepted that great "deal" they were offered in 1947, and because they didn't, they deserve to be completely oppressed today?
The 1947 deal did not force anyone to move. It divided the area of Israel/Palestine equally between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The Palestinians would have had half of the area, plus Jerusalem would have been a UN city under neither sides control.

Israel was forced to take the "occupied territories" in 1967 to prevent Arab forces from overrunning Israel. They also took large area's of Egypt, and the Golan Heights. These area's were taken in order to safe guard Israel's security which was threatened by the Arab countries which did not recognize Israel's right to exist. Israel later gave Egypt back its land once Egypt recognized Israel's right to exist. Israel is currently willing to give back the other occupied territories provided Israel's right to exist is recognized by the other countries/groups and the safety and security of its people is insured. Israel is one of the only true Democracies in the region and has a far better human rights record than the Arab nations to date.

Also, the Palestinians are not the totally oppressed people you make them out to be. Based on the latest Human Development Index, Palestinians rank #106 in the world in standard of living right behind people who live in Syria but ahead of people who live in Vietnam, India, and Egypt.

Statistics - Human Development Reports (UNDP)

Israel offered the Palestinians 95% of what they wanted back in the 1990s and they rejected the deal. Just another example of the Palestinians choosing violence while Israel chose a peace deal. There will never be an independent Palestinian state until they are actually willing to accept some form of a peace deal. To date, they have rejected every major one.
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Old 01-18-2009, 11:34 PM   #100
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They cannot simply share the land because Hamas says in its own charter that their goal is to destroy Israel and murder the Jews. How can Israel be expected to negotiate peace with people who reject peace in favor of murdering civilians? Most reasonable people agree that there should be 2 states, one for Jews and one for Palestianians. Hamas favors a 1 state solution-the destruction of Israel with a fundamentalist Islamic state in its place. The Palestinians have been offered their own state as recently as 2001. Arafat declined even though he would have gotten 98% of the land that the Palestinians were asking for. In 1948, the UN decided to split the land into 2 states. The Jews would get the land that was predominantly Jewish and the Arabs would get the land that was mostly Arab. The Jews accepted and the Arabs declined. The could have solved the whole conflict right there but they just could not stand to have Jews in the middle east. And by the way, there is a huge difference between targeting civilians-as Hamas does, and targeting terrorists-as Israel does. Hamas has been shooting missles and sending suicide bombers into Israel for decades now. Israel doesn't respond by sending suicide bombers and rockets into schools, restaurants and homes like the Palestinian terrorists do. The first rule of terrorism is to murder civilians and then cry to the world when they retaliate. Hamas are masters of this and too many people fall for their crap. The Palestinian people ARE suffering and I feel awful for them. But it is Hamas' fault and not Israel's.
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Old 01-18-2009, 11:41 PM   #101
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Israel did not force the Palestinians to leave. Mahmmoud Abbas admits that the Palestinians left because the Arab governments wanted to clear the land so the Arab armies could murder the Jews. The Palestinians who did not leave are now FULL CITIZENS of Israel who enjoy FAR more rights than Arabs do in Arab countries. There is a double standard in that the world criticizes Israel for its treatment of the Arabs (which is unjustified) while they don't say a word about Jordan (which does not grant citizenship to Jews) or Saudi Arabia (which wont even allow a Jew into the
kindgdom).
Anyway--can't wait for tomorrow.
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Old 01-19-2009, 12:10 AM   #102
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Israel did not force the Palestinians to leave. Mahmmoud Abbas admits that the Palestinians left because the Arab governments wanted to clear the land so the Arab armies could murder the Jews. The Palestinians who did not leave are now FULL CITIZENS of Israel who enjoy FAR more rights than Arabs do in Arab countries. There is a double standard in that the world criticizes Israel for its treatment of the Arabs (which is unjustified) while they don't say a word about Jordan (which does not grant citizenship to Jews) or Saudi Arabia (which wont even allow a Jew into the
kindgdom).
Anyway--can't wait for tomorrow.

That's a funny story - you should tell it to my Palestinian friend (he is now in his 70's) who was forced out of his home at gunpoint by the Israeli military (he was a young boy, and says he remembers it as clear as day because they were all loaded onto a truck and his mother literally grabbed the pot of chicken she was cooking because she had no idea where they were going and wanted to make sure her children had food.) He was born in Haifa. He was removed to the area that is now the West Bank.

I swore to myself I wasn't going to get sucked in, but I can't let this pass unchallenged - Arab Israelis do not have equal rights to Jewish Israelis, to start with, please see:

Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, which prohibits the acqusition of Israeli citizenship or residency by a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza Strip via marriage if they marry and Israeli Arab. The law does allow children from such marriages to live in Israel until age 12, at which age the law requires them to emigrate. How nice and equal.

The Israeli identity card indicates whether holders are Jewish or not by adding the person's Hebrew date of birth. The ID system determines where Arabs and Jews are permitted to live, access to some government welfare programs, and how they are likely to be treated by civil servants, etc.

Land distribution - 93% of the land inside Israel is not held by private owners and is managed as public property. Arab-Israelis are not entitled to this land.
The land distribution policy is how Israel has been able to continue building settlements which are in clear violation of UN resolutions.

In addition, Arab Israelis travel and movement is severely restricted. Do I need to even mention "the Wall"?


And now I want to because I actually got sucked into something I swore I wouldn't!
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Old 01-19-2009, 12:12 AM   #103
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You catch on fast, don't you?
Apparently not! LMAO
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Old 01-19-2009, 12:36 AM   #104
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i just want to point out the vast gulf of difference between myself and between a certain other poster who someone said i was in total agreement with and was echoing in my various posts in that other thread. while i support the right for Israel to exist and to defend itself and i know why Israel does what it does, and while i abhor Hamas, i also abhor the suffering of the Palestinian people and am certain that the present situation is absolutely unacceptable and look forward to a two state solution. i do not, have not, and will not, label the Palestinians as lazy whiners simply because by one measure they might live better than, say, the vietnamese. standard of living means NOTHING when a shell can hit your bedroom and catch your two daughters unaware and sever their heads from their bodies. and, yes, that goes for Israelis under fire from rockets. i mourn for 10 Israelis, and i mourn for 1,000 Palestinians. and i don't know why the extremes of this debate dictate the discourse, and why one extreme views any sort of dissent from their position as de facto unblinking support for the other extreme. it's like the abortion debate. and, like the abortion debate, the Israelis and the Palestinians are actually stand-ins for much deeper issues that grip the globe.

and in the meanwhile, innocent people die.

just saying.
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Old 01-19-2009, 06:10 AM   #105
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i just want to point out the vast gulf of difference between myself and between a certain other poster who someone said i was in total agreement with and was echoing in my various posts in that other thread. while i support the right for Israel to exist and to defend itself and i know why Israel does what it does, and while i abhor Hamas, i also abhor the suffering of the Palestinian people and am certain that the present situation is absolutely unacceptable and look forward to a two state solution. i do not, have not, and will not, label the Palestinians as lazy whiners simply because by one measure they might live better than, say, the vietnamese. standard of living means NOTHING when a shell can hit your bedroom and catch your two daughters unaware and sever their heads from their bodies. and, yes, that goes for Israelis under fire from rockets. i mourn for 10 Israelis, and i mourn for 1,000 Palestinians. and i don't know why the extremes of this debate dictate the discourse, and why one extreme views any sort of dissent from their position as de facto unblinking support for the other extreme. it's like the abortion debate. and, like the abortion debate, the Israelis and the Palestinians are actually stand-ins for much deeper issues that grip the globe.

and in the meanwhile, innocent people die.

just saying.
And saying it well, I might add.
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