Bono confronts Obama, America on Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[Tiger Edge]

What I really don't understand is how so many of my fellow Americans fail to grasp the fact that the reason we were attacked, the reason we live in fear of terrorists, is because of our completely one-sided support of Israel. NO, George Bush, believe it or not, "they" don't hate us for our freedom (if they did, why wouldn't they just attack Sweden?), they hate us because without our complete and absolute support of whatever Israel does, Israel would not have been able to continue its repressive regime.

It's a bit of a stretch to assume that Israel is the only reason we were attacked on 9/11. Why not attack Israel, then?

Agreed, and also just to note in passing, seeing as Iran was brought into it by another poster, Iran/Persia has never attacked or invaded anyone.

A dog need not have a history of biting before doing so.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

it did just make your post that little bit funnier.

I'm glad for you

 

[BWU2Buffs]

Financeguy -

You remember on the Vertigo tour how between Pride and Streets he'd talk about "... not just an American dream, but an African dream" etc etc?

That's what he did here. An African dream, an Israeli dream, (PAUSE FILLED WITH POLITICAL CONTROVERSY) a Palestinian dream.

That's all it was.

Agree completely -- I just saw the replay - our HBO freebie did not offer the live version this afternoon; so I was watching for this comment after reading some Blue Crack earlier in the day.

It was nothing more than a reminder that the dream is universal -- Bono mentioned both sides.

End of story -- no big deal.

 

[Kinsa]

It's a bit of a stretch to assume that Israel is the only reason we were attacked on 9/11. Why not attack Israel, then?



A dog need not have a history of biting before doing so.

Because when they do attack Israel it doesn't have the same effect. The average American doesn't give a crap if an Israeli or a Palestinian is killed - don't you think the current massacre in Gaza is proof that a Palestinian life has no value to an average American?? How else can you explain that Israel has been given free reign these past few weeks to literally blow Gaza off the map, and yet you barely hear a peep about it in the news, and when you do, the news is so pro-Israeli its sick. The headline is 20 Israelis killed, and then the footnote is, by the way, a thousand Palestinians have been killed, in self-defense, of course, because everything Israel does is in self defense.

Do you even think an average American can tell you where Israel is on the map? Please. But kill an American, and that counts, that gets their attention. That's just the way it is. Sad but true.

 

[Kinsa]

Agree completely -- I just saw the replay - our HBO freebie did not offer the live version this afternoon; so I was watching for this comment after reading some Blue Crack earlier in the day.

It was nothing more than a reminder that the dream is universal -- Bono mentioned both sides.

End of story -- no big deal.

Although at face value, I agree, it doesn't seem like a big deal - But if you understood the atmosphere in DC regarding Israel, you would understand what a big deal it really was.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

and yet you barely hear a peep about it in the news, and when you do, the news is so pro-Israeli its sick.

hahahahhahah thats all they've been talking about in the news, that and obama. And its so pro-gaza its sick

 

[coolian2]

dude, gaza is the disputed territory, not any particular group.

hamas is what you're looking for.

 

[Tiger Edge]

Because when they do attack Israel it doesn't have the same effect. The average American doesn't give a crap if an Israeli or a Palestinian is killed - don't you think the current massacre in Gaza is proof that a Palestinian life has no value to an average American?? How else can you explain that Israel has been given free reign these past few weeks to literally blow Gaza off the map, and yet you barely hear a peep about it in the news, and when you do, the news is so pro-Israeli its sick. The headline is 20 Israelis killed, and then the footnote is, by the way, a thousand Palestinians have been killed, in self-defense, of course, because everything Israel does is in self defense.

Do you even think an average American can tell you where Israel is on the map? Please. But kill an American, and that counts, that gets their attention. That's just the way it is. Sad but true.

That doesn't make any sense. They hate us because we support Israel means that they really hate Israel and only hate us secondary to that. Why hit the middle man?
If you were speaking in WORLDLY terms, then I would understand. More people outside the United States would "cry" in the world over the death of an American than that of an Israeli.
I think if you ask the average American what they thought about the Palestinian loss of life they're answer would be, "It's a downright shame," no more or no less than the loss of life in the Sudan or Rwanda circa 1993, or that of a Bulgarian or a Colombian or take your pick of any country that is not a world power. I don't think anyone is saying that ordinary civilians of any country deserve to die as a result of "conflict".
I think you and a few others on this forum have to put your own biases in perspective here. I've certainly gone over my stances with Israel in the past few weeks. Not everything is as black and white as you claim.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

dude, gaza is the disputed territory, not any particular group.

hamas is what you're looking for.

I stand by what I said. I would think not all the people dying in gaza are members of hamas.

 

[AliEnvy]

Although at face value, I agree, it doesn't seem like a big deal - But if you understood the atmosphere in DC regarding Israel, you would understand what a big deal it really was.

Bono

He's going to have to crank the Irish charm and blood alcohol level while schmoozing at all those balls.

Atta boy.

Balls.

 

[BWU2Buffs]

dude, gaza is the disputed territory, not any particular group.

hamas is what you're looking for.

Weren't those the guys that got elected, in a free election? Oh yeah, maybe we Americans should be careful what we wish for in the Middle East -- those fee elections don't always turn out like we planned them.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

Oh.

My.

God.






I HAD THE BEST IDEA EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why don't Israel and Palestinians share the land???????????

 

[Kinsa]

That doesn't make any sense. They hate us because we support Israel means that they really hate Israel and only hate us secondary to that. Why hit the middle man?
If you were speaking in WORLDLY terms, then I would understand. More people outside the United States would "cry" in the world over the death of an American than that of an Israeli.
I think if you ask the average American what they thought about the Palestinian loss of life they're answer would be, "It's a downright shame," no more or no less than the loss of life in the Sudan or Rwanda circa 1993, or that of a Bulgarian or a Colombian or take your pick of any country that is not a world power. I don't think anyone is saying that ordinary civilians of any country deserve to die as a result of war.
I think you and a few others on this forum have to put your own biases in perspective here. I've certainly gone over my stances with Israel in the past few weeks. Not everything is as black and white as you claim.

I am clearly biased, I would never deny that. I am biased against MY taxpayer money, that I work hard for, being given freely to a regime so that that regime can continue its unfettered oppression of another people. I feel this way about many counties, Israel just particularly irks me because of the insane and disproportionate amount of taxpayer money that is used to support it, and because of the effects this country has felt because of its blind support.

I am also biased because I have seen Israel and the West Bank first hand. I wish more Americans and supporters of Israel could do the same. I guarantee their blind support of Israel would change (except the hard core settler type Israelis, to me, they are like the fundamentalist Muslims, completely without any basis in reality).

 

[anitram]

I think you and a few others on this forum have to put your own biases in perspective here. I've certainly gone over my stances with Israel in the past few weeks. Not everything is as black and white as you claim.

Except that quite a few of us have.

If you would have spoken to me 10 years ago, you would find that my views were much closer to yours. I was very pro-Israeli, probably largely because I have more emotional ties to Israel than to the Palestinian territories. Many of my friends are Jewish and a number of them are Israeli-born. My mentor when I worked in leukemia research was an Israeli Jew, as were most of my coworkers. My father took women's handball teams to play in Israel in the late 70s and early 80s, he was a coach and at that time most of Eastern Europe had no interest in extending a friendly hand, plus tended to stay away for safety reasons. So that largely contributed to how I perceived the conflict.

Those were biases that I had, and once I was able to let go of them, my opinions began to shift. I think what has happened to the Palestinians over the last several decades is criminal, I think American tax dollars are subsidizing an apartheid regime in the West Bank, and that this situation has bred desperation and terror among ordinary Palestinians. I wish that for their own sake, they had a Gandhi, or a Mandela (who, let's not forget was branded a terrorist by the American government, and Margaret Thatcher once upon a time), but if I imagine myself in their situation, which is appalling and should rock the very essence of every human being, I am not so sure I'd respond in a polite and peaceful way either. It is a huge shame that their situation is such that thug groups like Hamas can emerge and claim "leadership" roles and it is even more shameful that Arab countries exploit their Palestinian "brothers and sisters" while never providing meaningful solutions, improving infrastructure or anything else worthwhile.

So yes, some of us have revised our biases, in short.

 

[Strongbow]

Where exactly in Israel could you drop a nuke without killing off large parts of the Arab countries/territories that surround it? Or is this fear based on the assumption that they're all ready to martyr themselves?

An Iranian Cleric once said that it would only take a single nuclear weapon to take out Israel. Thats actually not true, but that is where many such statements come from. Iran has no problem supplying weapons to Hamas which kill many Israeli citizens including those that are Arab.

 

[bonoz]

Umm, last I checked, Palestine ISN'T a country, its two separate occupied territories. Occupied by Israel. That's the whole point. Decades of occupation tends to bread anti-occupier sentiment, don't you think??

And I seriously question whether you have actually been to the West Bank or Gaza, (or even Israel for that matter, since it seems you don't know how to spell it) and compared their miserable quality of life of even the middle class Palestinian to the quality of life of a poor or lower class Israeli. No comparison. Apartheid still exists in this world, in the form of Israelis control over the Palestinians every movement. Its just that the US government will never recognize this.

I for one was thrilled Bono seized his chance - I have always wondered why he hasn't really said anything directly about Palestine before (or maybe he has and I missed it?) You could tell by the look on Obama's face he was less than thrilled - typical US govt response, we wouldn't want to look like we are criticizing Israel as they massacre innocent civilians, right??

Top post. Take a bow.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

I guess everyones ignoring my amazing and never-before-thought-of idea

 

[Tiger Edge]

It is a huge shame that their situation is such that thug groups like Hamas can emerge and claim "leadership" roles and it is even more shameful that Arab countries exploit their Palestinian "brothers and sisters" while never providing meaningful solutions, improving infrastructure or anything else worthwhile.

And Israel is supposed to wait for something else worthwhile to be elected in while these thugs (aside from Hamas) continue to threaten and attack its citizens? I understand that this war is disproportionate, but I don't think you can claim that Israel is the bully of all these nations.

 

[Tiger Edge]

I guess everyones ignoring my amazing and never-before-thought-of idea

I think it's a great idea. I elect you to enforce it.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

Thanks. Everyone thinks im crazy

 

[anitram]

And Israel is supposed to wait for something else worthwhile to be elected in while these thugs (aside from Hamas) continue to threaten and attack its citizens? I understand that this war is disproportionate, but I don't think you can claim that Israel is the bully of all these nations.

I never claimed that, I don't really know what you're talking about here. I criticized the Arab nations for exploiting the Palestinians politically (driving up passions on Arab streets) while not doing anything whatsoever for them that is constructive.

Gaza actually probably has a relatively simple solution, except for the part where it is not contiguously connected to the West Bank. It is the West Bank that is the major problem. One of the main obstacles are the Israeli settlers, all of whom are there illegally, hundreds of thousands of them, imposing an apartheid on the West Bank Palestinians who live in bantustans cut up by "Israeli-only" roads and such.

 

[Kinsa]

I guess everyones ignoring my amazing and never-before-thought-of idea

We're not ignoring it, but without anything more from you to add to the discussion than "hey, share the land", what could we possibly intelligently say in response?

I think what you posted goes without saying - the question is, how are two parties to share something equally, when one party has all the power?

Try this one on - How about someone came to your house, kicked you out, moved you to an entirely different part of the country without compensation for the house they took from you, and now, 50 years later say they want to negotiate for you to actually live in "freedom" on the land they removed you to in the first place? Would you like to enter into a "negotiation" like that???

Until and unless the Palestinians are treated equally in all aspects of life, which will never happen so long as the U.S. continues its blind support of Israels' oppression, there will never be peace in that region.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

I never claimed that, I don't really know what you're talking about here. I criticized the Arab nations for exploiting the Palestinians politically (driving up passions on Arab streets) while not doing anything whatsoever for them that is constructive

what he's saying is that Israel's not gonna wait till Gaza decides to help itself.

 

[Strongbow]

There may be a limited reach in the immediate physical destruction.

But the radiation resulting therefrom would not discriminate between Israeli and Palestinian and Egyptian and Jordanian bodies, etc.

The area that would be effected by radiation would be dependent on whether the nuclear device was detonated on the ground, close to the ground or was an air burst. A ground Burst can produce significant amounts of fallout that could travel far from the immediate area effected by the blast, heat and prompt radiation. An air burst produce little to no fall out and the only radiation is really prompt radiation which depending on the size of the nuclear weapon( the larger yield nuclear weapons), might cover an area that is smaller than the area covered by blast and heat.

So its dependent on where the nuclear device is detonated as well as the size of it. A 1 megaton air burst over Tel Aviv would effect primarily just area's inside Israel, while a 1 megaton ground burst in Tel Aviv could kick up fallout that could travel into Palestinian area's, Jordan, Egypt, Syria or Lebanon depending on weather conditions.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

We're not ignoring it, but without anything more from you to add to the discussion than "hey, share the land", what could we possibly intelligently say in response?

I think what you posted goes without saying - the question is, how are two parties to share something equally, when one party has all the power?

Try this one on - How about someone came to your house, kicked you out, moved you to an entirely different part of the country without compensation for the house they took from you, and now, 50 years later say they want to negotiate for you to actually live in "freedom" on the land they removed you to in the first place? Would you like to enter into a "negotiation" like that???

Until and unless the Palestinians are treated equally in all aspects of life, which will never happen so long as the U.S. continues its blind support of Israels' oppression, there will never be peace in that region.

if you wanna get technical, Isreal was there first long before Palestine. And were kicked out by the Palestinians So don't even go there.

Also, what I said was kinda a joke.

 

[Kinsa]

if you wanna get technical, Isreal was there first long before Palestine. And were kicked out by the Palestinians So don't even go there.

Don't even go where? You have yet to actually respond to anything with anything more than non-sensical sound bites. When you actually can back up your views with some facts, please let me know.

 

[bonoz]

There's quite a fine line about what the Europeans say. Israel is our only friend in the middle east. (Debate that if you will.) I don't know if we are Israel's only friend, but it certainly feels that way sometimes.
Additionally, Israel is surrounded by countries whose leaders who feel like they don't have a right to be there at all. I'm not just talking about the Palestinian territory.
I almost feel like if the United States stops "supporting" Israel, or claims that they are doing something wrong it will lead to an open invitation for any of those countries to do what they wish. It's almost like Israel is our little sister who is being bullied by the older, 6th graders with big rocks. You want her to stand up on her own two feet, but you know that those bullies can plow her down at any moment.
I have a great fear that Israel will be nuked one day and I'll never speak to my very good friend again. One bomb would be all that takes to destroy it, size wise. Who will retaliate in a war they really want no part of? Us, of course.

I've thought about this quite a lot in the past few weeks. You can say that I am a pretty ardent supporter of Israel in general (I wish my mom would have gone through with her bat mitzvah so I could make use of the birthright trip ) and their right to exist, but what they have done in the past few weeks has weakened them far more than they will ever know. Damned if you do, damned it you don't.

Um, yeah "they" must surely be the bullies. I mean after all they did kill 10 Israelis, and Israel killed what.. like.. only a 1000 or so Palestinians right? I mean .. clearly this makes sense since 1 Israeli life is equal to 10 Palestinian ones. Yes, they are the bullies. Nice, very nice.

 

[Tiger Edge]

How about someone came to your house, kicked you out, moved you to an entirely different part of the country without compensation for the house they took from you

Someone actually did do that to my parents, but there is no negotiation to get them back. In fact, if either my parents or I returned to Cuba we would be placed in jail.
But hey, let's celebrate the Cuban revolution.

(This isn't really directed at you, Kinsa)

what she's saying is that Israel's not gonna wait till Gaza decides to help itself.

Pretty much, or any other country that has shitty leaders. I hate to bring up Saddam Hussein, but as much as I think the assault on Iraq was completely fabricated, removing him from power freed many people, despite its consequences later.

Anyway, I think we've gone off topic or this needs to be merged with the other thread. I can only speak of what I know on the subject and it's admittedly not much.

One last thing:

Um, yeah "they" must surely be the bullies. I mean after all they did kill 10 Israelis, and Israel killed what.. like.. only a 1000 or so Palestinians right? I mean .. clearly this makes sense since 1 Israeli life is equal to 10 Palestinian ones. Yes, they are the bullies. Nice, very nice.

I have no idea where you got this from. I have never claimed that the Palestinian people are bullies. I think Hamas is a glorified thug organization that terrorizes Israel whenever they get the chance. I think that plenty of people in the Arab world applaud these efforts thinking that it's going to further their cause. If anything, I pity the Palestinian people for not having a leader or government to legitimize their cause as anitram mentioned beforehand.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

Don't even go where? You have yet to actually respond to anything with anything more than non-sensical sound bites. When you actually can back up your views with some facts, please let me know.

*sigh*

Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule.[26] Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE and the resultant large-scale expulsion of Jews. In 628/9, the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius conducted a massacre and expulsion of the Jews, at which point the Jewish population probably reached its lowest point.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

ok correct me if Im wrong
-Jews live in what becomes Israel
-Jews kicked out of Israel
-Palestinians live in Israel
-UN creates nation of Israel, places Jews in Israel, kicks Palestinians out
-Palestinians don't like this
-Senseless bloodshed ever since

Obviosuly there's two sides. I support Israel, but I also undertsand Palestinians plight.