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Old 01-19-2009, 04:13 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
ok correct me if Im wrong
-Jews live in what becomes Israel
-Jews kicked out of Israel
-Palestinians live in Israel
-UN creates nation of Israel, places Jews in Israel, kicks Palestinians out
-Palestinians don't like this
-Senseless bloodshed ever since

Obviosuly there's two sides. I support Israel, but I also undertsand Palestinians plight.
You missed the part where the Israelis, massacred and bombed their way into the land, and that a UN (struck senseless with guilt due to the Holocaust) gave 33% of the population 60% of the land.
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:18 PM   #137
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If the Palestinians had simply accepted the two state solution in 1947, there would not have been a Palestinian refugee problem. The Palestinian refugee problem was primarily created by the 1948 war, a war that Israel did not start and a war that was supported by the Palestinians. Its not to say that there were no istances of injustice by Israelis, but the vast majority of Palestinians who left the area, left with the Arab forces that were in retreat.

If Israel wanted to, they could have ejected every single Arab, but they did not, which is why today one out of every 5 Israelis is Arab. The majority of Arabs that left Israel were not uprooted, but willingly left as the Arab forces retreated.


Just out of curiousity, do you support Israels right to exist?
No other country in the world has a defined 'right to exist', they are socio-economic and political constructs, held together by a shared need/community and defended by force of arms. Half the countries in the world were shoved together by a retreating British Empire, just so as not to leave a vacuum. I've always got to laugh at a nuclear armed country with the worlds 5th largest standing army, bleating on about "it's right to exist", there is no god given right to exists, countries exist simply because they do. But this sort of whining is what tends to happen with politics and religion meet.
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:57 PM   #138
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You missed the part where the Israelis, massacred and bombed their way into the land, and that a UN (struck senseless with guilt due to the Holocaust) gave 33% of the population 60% of the land.
yeah. I also missed Palestines fanaticism and violence.

Israel has used extreme measures. So has Palestine. I think the solution here is education. Both sides need to stop being brainwashed against the other in schools. Once the two sides can stop holding a grudge against each other, a chance of peace is possible. However, this isn't possible with Hamas in power.
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Old 01-19-2009, 05:11 PM   #139
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You missed the part where the Israelis, massacred and bombed their way into the land, and that a UN (struck senseless with guilt due to the Holocaust) gave 33% of the population 60% of the land.
Blame for the 1948 War now rests exclusively on the Israelis?
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Old 01-19-2009, 07:50 PM   #140
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You missed the part where the Israelis, massacred and bombed their way into the land, and that a UN (struck senseless with guilt due to the Holocaust) gave 33% of the population 60% of the land.
When did Israelis bomb and massacre their way into the land? Jews had been living there for thousands of years. Jews have been the overwhelming majority in Jerusalem since the first population surveys were taken in the early 1800s. Moslems on the other hand made up only 25% of the city. Much of the land that used to be Arab was sold to Jews by absentee landlords living in Beirut and Damascus. The Arabs were land speculators and they made a hefty profit by selling the land (which was mostly uninhabitable, nonarable swamp land) to the Jews. By the time of the partition in 1947 there was a clear majority of Jews (538,000 Jews vs 397,000 Arabs) in the land granted to Israel. Israel accepted but was forced to defend themselves when the Arab armies attacked. If the Arabs had not attacked, THERE WOULDNT BE A REFUGEE CRISIS. When you say 33% of the people were given 60% of the land, you are including Jordan, which is 85% Palestinian (Why isnt that the Palestinian homeland?) You ignore facts and history in order to criticize the Jews which makes you an anti-semite bigot. By the way, Arafat was offered 50 billion dollars by Israel in 2000 to give to the refugees and he declined. In addition, Israel offered to give up 96% of the West Bank and all of the Gaza strip--Arafat declined because he didn't want to live in peace next to Jews. You don't understand that Israel is trying to make peace with people who don't want peace causing Israeli and Palestinian civilians to suffer.
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Old 01-19-2009, 07:57 PM   #141
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Funny that nobody ever complains about the 850,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab countries in 1948. I know Palestinians in Haifa who didn't flee during the war and they are full citizens of Israel although they often complain about the Israeli government, which they are free to do. Luckily for them, they don't live in Arab countries where you lose your head for criticizing the government.
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Old 01-19-2009, 08:15 PM   #142
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By the way, Arafat was offered 50 billion dollars by Israel in 2000 to give to the refugees and he declined. In addition, Israel offered to give up 96% of the West Bank and all of the Gaza strip--Arafat declined because he didn't want to live in peace next to Jews. You don't understand that Israel is trying to make peace with people who don't want peace causing Israeli and Palestinian civilians to suffer.
What were the exact conditions attached to the 50M?

Was the offer declined because Arafat didn't want peace or because the offer didn't grant Palestinians appropriate control over the land and resources offered?
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Old 01-19-2009, 08:30 PM   #143
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What were the exact conditions attached to the 50M?

Was the offer declined because Arafat didn't want peace or because the offer didn't grant Palestinians appropriate control over the land and resources offered?
Arafat declined for a few reasons. He didn't want peace and he knew that if he did make peace with Israel he would be killed by his own people, just as Sadat was murdered by Egyptians after he bravely and heroically made peace with his Jewish neighbors. Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia, who was there during the negotiations, called Arafat's rejection of the peace proposal "a crime against the Palestinians-in fact against the entire region." The best proof that Arafat did not want peace is that according to Dennis Ross, the US chief negotiator, Arafat didn't even make a counterproposal to Israel's offer. Don't you think a man who genuinely wants to make peace would at least offer a counterproposal to an already generous offer rather than simply rejecting it and ordering more terrorist attacks? It was all part of Arafat's deadly and deceptive plan to increase the violence. As Bandar said after the negotiations, "it is an open secret in the Arab world that Arafat was not truthful."
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Old 01-19-2009, 08:38 PM   #144
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None of that answered my questions.

Was Arafat supportive of the Arab Peace Initiative in 2002?
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Old 01-19-2009, 08:55 PM   #145
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None of that answered my questions.

Was Arafat supportive of the Arab Peace Initiative in 2002?
You asked me why Arafat rejected the proposal and I answered. As far as the money (30 billion dollars for refugees-I was thinking off the top of my head and I erred and said 50 billion-you erred and said 50 million) I don't know exactly what you mean by exact conditions. All Israel wanted was for Arafat to cease belligerency and terrorism.

Regarding Arafat's "support" of the Arab Peace Initiative in 2002, I have already demonstrated why that is irrelevant. Even the Arabs dismiss him as a two faced liar who cannot be trusted. He was brilliant at saying on Israeli TV that he was a peacemaker, and then ordering more terrorist attacks as soon as he got home. In fact, the opinion of most Arab countries regarding peace is irrelevant because they are not in power-Hamas is. On the very day that the peace initiative began, Hamas massacred 30 Israeli civilians in Netanya and injured 170. Hamas promised more attacks against civilians and they have kept their word to this day. But of course, Hamas really wants peace, right?
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Old 01-19-2009, 09:08 PM   #146
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Nothing in your answers - and I suspect most of the peace deals - addresses any real issues around Palestinian sovereignty over their land.
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Old 01-19-2009, 09:20 PM   #147
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Nothing in your answers - and I suspect most of the peace deals - addresses any real issues around Palestinian sovereignty over their land.
I answered all of your questions. Did you even bother to read my answers? What do you mean by real sovereignty? They were offered 95% of the West Bank and all of the Gaza strip. I, like just about every Jew on Earth, want very badly for the Palestinians to have their own state. When Palestinian leadership wants to have their own state more than they want to sweep the Jews into the sea and destroy Israel, they will have their own state. When they can be trusted to stop shooting missles at innocent civilians and strapping bombs to their chests, they will have their own state. I cannot wait for this to happen. I don't understand-Hamas explicitly says it does not want peace...so why should anyone believe or argue that they do want peace?
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Old 01-19-2009, 09:21 PM   #148
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Well, Israel did not exist, and neither did a state of Palestine at that point, so I am guessing you mean the Arabs and the Jews living in the area? I do believe the Arab nations made a mistake by not accepting sooner the inevitable - that Israel would exist as a nation. I do think their resistance at the time is understandable - would you like to give away your home, your land, because the UN tells you do so? I doubt it. I'm not saying they were right, I'm just saying I understand the human emotion of resistance involved.
There are actually Arab states today that still do not recognize Israels right to exist. The UN plan did not force people to give up their homes or their land. It divided the territory up based on the private ownership that existed at the time. The refugee problem was created by the war that the Arabs decided to launch against Israel in 1948. Again, this happened because of total Arab opposition to formation of state called Israel.
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Old 01-19-2009, 09:25 PM   #149
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Seriously, do you honestly believe this? If so, I really encourage you to study actual history, not some pro-Israeli version of history. Just actual history.
Please, enlighten us all with the peace deal that the Palestinians were actually for in 1947/1948 that recognized the formation of the state of Israel.
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Old 01-19-2009, 09:28 PM   #150
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Considering the acts of terrorism some Jewish groups were committing at the time, I imagine there would have been very little acceptance of legitimizing it.

Is that wrong?
Its wrong to deny Jewish people the right to form a state, because of the acts of a small minority. Despite the fact that Palestinian groups had committed terrorism against Jews in the area, the Jews were still willing to let the Palestinians form a state of their own.
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