Biological sex and gender identity: differences and overlaps

[Galeongirl]

Separate but equal. I thought that was always a bad thing?

It's not when it is by choice, rather than being forced to. I myself don't quite like changing out in the open lockerroom, so I pick a private stall and don't bitch about it wanting the rest of the world to accustom MY opinion. Why the heck would you care what I do in a lockerroom? Isn't that my business, not yours?

 

[anitram]

I think that INDY just has this notion that the girl in the story would be whipping her "cucumber" around the girls' locker room for shits and giggles.

 

[Galeongirl]

Yeah, as if a transgendered teen doesn't have enough self confidence issues as it is....


and even so, even if in this would happen. Why would he care? It's not like it would go without disciplinary action if she bothered the other girls with it...

 

[bono_212]

I can't believe how stupid this question is.

The definition of gynaecology is medical practice dealing with the organs of the female reproductive system, being the uterus, the vagina, ovaries and fallopian tubes. The definition of obstetrics is the medical practice associated with a woman's pregnancy.

WHERE does the prostate fit in here??

I realize it's stupid, but I believe what Indy was getting at is that a transgendered woman would want to see an OB/GYN, but wouldn't actually need one, since they don't have the actual biological need. The equivalent exam for a male is the prostate exam. So, in order for a transgendered woman to keep up appearance, they would meet with an OB/GYN for their prostate exam.

At least, I think that's what he meant. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous of a question, though.

 

[Diemen]

I realize it's stupid, but I believe what Indy was getting at is that a transgendered woman would want to see an OB/GYN, but wouldn't actually need one, since they don't have the actual biological need.

If they don't have an actual biological need to see one, why would they want to see one?

The equivalent exam for a male is the prostate exam. So, in order for a transgendered woman to keep up appearance, they would meet with an OB/GYN for their prostate exam.

I suppose this is all assuming that transgendered women must want to keep the fact that they're transgendered a secret. But here I thought that INDY was complaining about how it doesn't have to be a secret anymore. So... this:

Doesn't make it any less ridiculous of a question, though.

 

[anitram]

I realize it's stupid, but I believe what Indy was getting at is that a transgendered woman would want to see an OB/GYN, but wouldn't actually need one, since they don't have the actual biological need. The equivalent exam for a male is the prostate exam. So, in order for a transgendered woman to keep up appearance, they would meet with an OB/GYN for their prostate exam.

At least, I think that's what he meant. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous of a question, though.

Seriously? (Not directed at you, but at INDY if this is in fact what he's thinking.)

First of all there is no "equivalent" obstetric exam for men.

Secondly, are we assuming that transgendered people are also morons? That on principle they would want to get examined by a medical doctor who is not actually trained to provide them with the appropriate evaluation? Would you go to a cardiologist to give you advice about a kidney stone?

 

[jeevey]

Plus, if a person did m-f surgical transition then she might conceivably need a GYN, and there would be very little ridiculous about it.

 

[bono_212]

Seriously? (Not directed at you, but at INDY if this is in fact what he's thinking.)

First of all there is no "equivalent" obstetric exam for men.

Secondly, are we assuming that transgendered people are also morons? That on principle they would want to get examined by a medical doctor who is not actually trained to provide them with the appropriate evaluation? Would you go to a cardiologist to give you advice about a kidney stone?

Well exactly.

 

[INDY500]

I can't believe how stupid this question is.

The definition of gynaecology is medical practice dealing with the organs of the female reproductive system, being the uterus, the vagina, ovaries and fallopian tubes. The definition of obstetrics is the medical practice associated with a woman's pregnancy.

WHERE does the prostate fit in here??

Since we have now learned that "sex" and "gender" are not synonymous I'd like to know:


3) Who, if anyone, gets to say "No, you have a male genitalia so the answer is no."

Frankly I was afraid I wouldn't be able to come up with a scenario absurd enough that even posters here would agree that sometimes "no" is the right thing to say.

 

[INDY500]

Plus, if a person did m-f surgical transition then she might conceivably need a GYN, and there would be very little ridiculous about it.

Which is why I exclude transexuals in my discussions and only refer to transgender individuals.

 

[INDY500]

Thanks for clarifying that you in fact do not have any empathy for these individuals.

That's really what this is about, isn't it? You think these people are wrong, and you want to be able to tell them to stop playing around and just act normal. Your entire argument is an empty appeal to tradition and the status quo.

Compassion as defined by whom? You? Here's an analogy.

Do you think its compassionate to misdiagnose ADHD and treat with potent stimulants millions of our youth because the medical community, parents and school officials are all too lazy to actually work with students on concentration skills, impose disciple when needed and more often than not just deal with the fact that children are full of energy? I don't. And I fail to see how adding to the confusion young people have always dealt with regarding sexuality is compassionate either.

 

[INDY500]

Transgender athlete sues CrossFit for banning her from female contest - CNN.com

Transgender athlete sues CrossFit for banning her from competing as female
By Madison Park, CNN
updated 4:23 PM EST, Fri March 7, 2014

(CNN) -- A transgender woman prohibited from competing in a strength competition as a female is suing the fitness company sponsoring the competition, seeking $2.5 million in damages.
Chloie Jonsson, a personal trainer, charges the CrossFit company with discrimination, intentional infliction of emotional distress and unfair competition in a lawsuit filed Thursday in Santa Cruz, California.
While her lawyer calls it a case of discrimination against transgender people, CrossFit's lawyer calls it protecting the competition.
Last year, Jonsson sought to compete in the CrossFit Games, a contest aimed at determining the fittest man and woman.
According to the lawsuit, Jonsson has identified herself as a female since her teenage years and is legally recognized by California as a woman. She had sexual reassignment surgery in 2006 and has been on female hormone therapy, according to her lawsuit.
The lawsuit alleges that a CrossFit teammate of Jonsson's sent an anonymous e-mail to the games organizers asking about transgender athletes in the competition. CrossFit determined that competitors in the event had to compete in the gender of their birth.

So who's right? Does Chloie Jonsson's right to sexual expression in California trump a private company's right to set standards for competition and eligibility for all competitors?

 

[PhilsFan]

And I fail to see how adding to the confusion young people have always dealt with regarding sexuality is compassionate either.

This is akin to the argument that same-sex marriage is a bad idea because it's hard to talk to children about it.

The fact is that people like this have always existed. Recognizing it is a good thing, because it leads to more knowledge, understanding and eventually acceptance. Which, in my view, can only help young people. A more understanding world is a better world.

Forgive me the next time I accuse people on the right of being anti-education, it's conversations like this that I'm thinking of when I do so.

 

[INDY500]

Forgive me the next time I accuse people on the right of being anti-education, it's conversations like this that I'm thinking of when I do so.

Because only a lack of education can explain one who champions a different set of values, a different set of ideas and a different measure of progress than yours, correct?

Out of curiosity, does the right have even one argument that musters consideration for discussion among the pro-education populace?

 

[martha]

Empathy is synonymous with open hostility, anger, and furious indignation?

 

[martha]

Since we have now learned that "sex" and "gender" are not synonymous I'd like to know:

Forgive me the next time I accuse people on the right of being anti-education,

Point made.

This is the same guy who said the United States was "post-racial" when Obama was elected, and genuinely thought that Nazis and Socialists were the same thing.

 

[PhilsFan]

Because only a lack of education can explain one who champions a different set of values, a different set of ideas and a different measure of progress than yours, correct?

You're championing ignoring segments of the population, not a different set of values.

 

[INDY500]

Point made.

This is the same guy who said the United States was "post-racial" when Obama was elected, and genuinely thought that Nazis and Socialists were the same thing.

I did? I think you are confused (or drunk) martha. But what's new about that?

For the record, I said the United States was "post-facial" when Bill Clinton was reelected and genuinely thought Obama was a Nazi zombie created in a lab from the body parts of dead, transgender socialists.

 

[BVS]

Compassion as defined by whom? You? Here's an analogy.



Do you think its compassionate to misdiagnose ADHD and treat with potent stimulants millions of our youth because the medical community, parents and school officials are all too lazy to actually work with students on concentration skills, impose disciple when needed and more often than not just deal with the fact that children are full of energy? I don't. And I fail to see how adding to the confusion young people have always dealt with regarding sexuality is compassionate either.

This is seriously the worst analogy I've seen in here in a long time.

I agree with you about the overdiagnosis and overuse of stimulants, but how it can be analogous to this conversation no one will ever know.

 

[anitram]

Compassion as defined by whom? You? Here's an analogy.

Do you think its compassionate to misdiagnose ADHD and treat with potent stimulants millions of our youth because the medical community, parents and school officials are all too lazy to actually work with students on concentration skills, impose disciple when needed and more often than not just deal with the fact that children are full of energy? I don't. And I fail to see how adding to the confusion young people have always dealt with regarding sexuality is compassionate either.

What does a (mis)diagnosis of ADHD have to do with compassion? Even as an analogy I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

To me the bottom line is that there are relatively few transgendered people and even fewer transsexual people. They are really a very small minority in our world and they have to exist and function in a world where they, unfortunately, do not fit in due to the views of large segments of society. Their lives are much more difficult than yours or mine, from a young age, all the way into adulthood. They have to deal with ostracism, bullying and all kinds of psychological issues that come along with being different than the "norm". Their families may not accept them, their childhood friends may not understand them, they will likely have a more difficult time in the workplace and so on. And if there are small things which we can do (and YES allowing a transgendered person to play on a girls' softball team is a small thing), is that really reason to get yourself into a tizzy and act like we're all depraved and the sky is falling? Really?

 

[Vlad n U 2]

People like INDY are a big reason why suicide attempt rates among young trans people (perhaps the figure isn't all that different in older trans people) are at 45-50%.

This is the same guy who said the United States was "post-racial" when Obama was elected, and genuinely thought that Nazis and Socialists were the same thing.

Good to see he hasn't learned anything since.

 

[jeevey]

Transgender athlete sues CrossFit for banning her from female contest - CNN.com



So who's right? Does Chloie Jonsson's right to sexual expression in California trump a private company's right to set standards for competition and eligibility for all competitors?

Once again with the sports. So many thanks to anitram in the last post for recognizing that in the scope of human existence, sports are rather small. But I think the way this argument always sticks on sports quietly outlines what's really at stake in these arguments: the high value placed on masculine-coded values like competition, toughness, raw physical power, the domination of ranking winners and losers, and hierarchy within and between genders that it creates. Sport is the church in which we worship these values, and gender trangression is a fundamental blasphemy of them.

 

[Irvine511]

Because only a lack of education can explain one who champions a different set of values, a different set of ideas and a different measure of progress than yours, correct?

You do absolutely demonstrate a lack of knowledge on this subject.

 

[digitize]

INDY, I get the impression that you are tying to imply that excessive compassion towards transgendered people is likely to create incentives for people to falsely believe that they are transgendered, leading to a whole host of problems for society. In other words, that it will lead to false positives, to misdiagnoses of transgenderedness. Is that correct?

While I disagree with such sentiment, incidentally, I can't help but think of one of my best friends, who (by his own admission) is not transgendered, but went through a phase of about three months feeling very strongly that he was. He, however, has an overwhelming tendency to jump from phase to phase.

 

[Irvine511]

And for every one child that jumps from phase to phase because of a more accepting society, dozens and dozens more won't kill themselves because someone was kind and told them they had a place in society as well.

 

[digitize]

And for every one child that jumps from phase to phase because of a more accepting society, dozens and dozens more won't kill themselves because someone was kind and told them they had a place in society as well.

Yes, absolutely.

 

[martha]

I did? I think you are confused (or drunk) martha. But what's new about that?

For the record, I said the United States was "post-facial" when Bill Clinton was reelected and genuinely thought Obama was a Nazi zombie created in a lab from the body parts of dead, transgender socialists.

Ha! You DON'T have me on ignore.

 

[martha]

I did? I think you are confused (or drunk) martha. But what's new about that?

Dammit. You're right. You equated fascism and socialism.

http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f199/socialism-fascism-200375-2.html#post6324720

Spoiler

And I posted my original post before I had a Pacifico with my carne asada tacos and guacamole.

 

[bono_212]

Transgender athlete sues CrossFit for banning her from female contest - CNN.com

So who's right? Does Chloie Jonsson's right to sexual expression in California trump a private company's right to set standards for competition and eligibility for all competitors?

Now, this, I find to be a whole different situation from the softball one. If she is post-op and taking hormones, wouldn't that no longer effect her as being, biologically, stronger than any other woman? I honestly don't know, the science behind that isn't something I've studied much, outside of basic bio classes in college.

 

[Galeongirl]

According to the article, she's had surgery and is on post op female hormone treatment. So yes, physically she probably won't have the male advantage anymore since those are mainly powered by testosterone. Big part of the hormone treatment is testosterone blockers and the regular female hormons. Asides from this, she's legally recognized as a woman. So yes, in this case this woman's rights should win. You can argue all you want but technically she's a woman now so she should be allowed to enter female sports competitions.