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Old 03-18-2014, 11:27 PM   #241
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What's left to say really? I just hope to God you don't have anything to do with people with mental health issues. The mind boggles.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:49 AM   #242
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Sorry but that's BS. Suicide is always a tragedy but always a choice, an act of selfishness and cowardice that leaves those behind feeling guilty and feeling helpless and to to blame.



Am I equally at blame for the suicide rate among the chronically depressed and unhappy because I'm one happy SOB?



Humans have freewill. They have an intellect in which to overcome their genes, environment or emotions. But I know, it's mean to think people are ultimately responsible for their actions.



Off topic. All I have to say about that.


You're a real credit to Chrsitianity there.
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Old 03-19-2014, 03:01 AM   #243
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I think we can officially strike the claim to empathy.
I don't think any was evident in the first place.
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Old 03-19-2014, 04:40 AM   #244
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I agree. But I think INDY has now rendered the claim not just untrue but absurd.
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:55 AM   #245
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Sorry but that's BS. Suicide is always a tragedy but always a choice, an act of selfishness and cowardice that leaves those behind feeling guilty and feeling helpless and to to blame.
INDY, your views on suicide, and I mean this 100% truthfully, are in line with what people thought in the 19th century. If you look at any number of social anthropology studies, it would become plainly obvious to you.

I won't even comment on the absurdity of the "intellect can overcome genes" argument. Have you ever taken a molecular biology class? I mean, this stuff is like 101.
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Old 03-19-2014, 09:03 AM   #246
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I'm glad you live such a happy life INDY, that you never had to endure enough misery and pain to ever have considered suicide. I hope one day people like you will allow people like me to live a normal, happy life as well without hate and bigotry.
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Old 03-19-2014, 03:45 PM   #247
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And of course, he's either going to ignore all of this or accuse "liberal FYM" of piling on and refusing to respect and debate ideas. That's modus operandi for GOP discourse. If you don't like the counter-argument, accuse it of bias.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:15 PM   #248
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I won't even comment on the absurdity of the "intellect can overcome genes" argument. Have you ever taken a molecular biology class? I mean, this stuff is like 101.
Ironically this^ in a thread about humans feeling or thinking they are something other than their biological (chromosomal) sex.

Do you really think I believe someone can "think" themselves to to grow taller than their genes would otherwise determine? Or change their eye color or otherwise defy their DNA? NO, what I am talking about is those that seek to blame bad or unhealthy behavior on their genes. Or their environment. Or their emotions. It's a copout.

Do you think humans have freewill?
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:23 PM   #249
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What's left to say really? I just hope to God you don't have anything to do with people with mental health issues. The mind boggles.


Seriously, I give up. I assume that loved ones, friends and colleagues had done everything possible to help but if someone still takes their life they are ultimately responsible.

The Devil isn't to blame. High fructose corn syrup isn't to blame, Judas Priest records aren't to blame and mean conservatives aren't to blame.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:24 PM   #250
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Do you think humans have freewill?
Yes.

But the degree of free will is affected by a person's mental state.

It's a very absurd thing for you to say that suicide is always a choice, and a selfish and cowardly one. You have no understanding of mental health, that much is obvious.

I have spoken often of my aunt, who was a violent, paranoid schizophrenic. Who attempted suicide 3 times before she finally succeeded. When I was a little girl, she had to be kept away from children after she announced plans to boil my cousin and I in a cauldron and cook a stew with us. She was completely mentally ill and absolutely non-functional in society when she was off her meds, which was more often than not.

You just have no clue. It's not that it makes me angry, but sad at how ignorant you are.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:26 PM   #251
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I think we all agree that humans have free will. But if some humans are regularly degraded, rejected and humiliated, made to feel that they are wrong and bad, have something intrinsically wrong about them, and experience a much higher incidence of bullying, abuse, rape and assault than the ordinary population, than it's reasonable that they might be suicidal more often and more intensely. In fact suicidal feelings might even the most reasonable and humane emotional response to the circumstances that trans people often live in. That's not to say suicide is the RIGHT response, but it's certainly an understandable one.
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:04 PM   #252
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Yes.

But the degree of free will is affected by a person's mental state.

It's a very absurd thing for you to say that suicide is always a choice, and a selfish and cowardly one. You have no understanding of mental health, that much is obvious.
Let me de-generalize my ALL with All suicides*

* excluding psychotics and the mentally ill that fail to respond to treatment, those that martyr themselves to save the lives of others, those that sign Do Not Resuscitate waivers, and probably some others.

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I have spoken often of my aunt, who was a violent, paranoid schizophrenic. Who attempted suicide 3 times before she finally succeeded. When I was a little girl, she had to be kept away from children after she announced plans to boil my cousin and I in a cauldron and cook a stew with us. She was completely mentally ill and absolutely non-functional in society when she was off her meds, which was more often than not.
This would make an interesting topic as well.
Is the de-institutionalization that allows so many mentally ill people to wander our streets forgoing their medicine, counseling and other treatments often presenting as a danger to themselves as well as others... is that really compassion?
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You just have no clue. It's not that it makes me angry, but sad at how ignorant you are.
Ignorant? It's as if suicide isn't an issue of morality and ethics for you. Life is precious, there is always hope if one looks in the right place.

And by the way, you really should read up on the argument on the existence of freewill. You'd be surprised how many really, really smart people think humans have no freewill.
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:09 PM   #253
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Your argument is a polite version of "depressed people need to get over it."
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:52 PM   #254
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Morality and ethics don't mean much to someone mentally ill enough to commit suicide.

Absolutes are so self-serving.
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Old 03-20-2014, 05:27 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Ironically this^ in a thread about humans feeling or thinking they are something other than their biological (chromosomal) sex.

Do you really think I believe someone can "think" themselves to to grow taller than their genes would otherwise determine? Or change their eye color or otherwise defy their DNA? NO, what I am talking about is those that seek to blame bad or unhealthy behavior on their genes. Or their environment. Or their emotions. It's a copout.

Do you think humans have freewill?
You can't think yourself taller than your genes determine. But the human mind and body can lead to show us that there's more than we previously thought possible on topics we haven't approached much in the past, like gender.

Humans have free will, to a certain extent. Instinct is always there.


Suicide is a very complex thing, and most people who in the end grasp that measure see no other way out. There's an honest conviction that the world will be a better place without them, that their loved ones are much better off. It's commonly an act of selflessness, rather than selfishness, but it is not perceived that way by the outside world as we do not understand what that person was thinking. So we see it as a cop out, as something weak and selfish. Morality and ethics lose value when you're in a very deep dark place.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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