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Old 12-29-2011, 01:18 PM   #46
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Bill Maher's raison d'etre is to say things that piss people off. He's done that. My issue with Tebow's displays has nothing to do with him personally - what little I know of him is that he appears to be a grounded, compassionate person who volunteers his time and money to causes that he feels strongly for & has a strong Christian faith. All fine things, IMO.

My issues here are twofold: firstly, Maher (and a large number of other atheists) do the very thing they (not unfairly) accuse most religious folks of doing, which is to refuse to accept that you came by your way of thinking on your own, the same as they did. If I choose to believe there is a magical, ancient, purple dragon who lives under the sea & grants my wishes if I stand on my head & chant "Ipsy, dipsy, tinky goo, fluffernutter bramblescratch dew", then it is my inherent right to do so. It is not your right, your place, or your mission to tell me otherwise. If I'm wrong, I'll have to face those consequences at some time, same as you.

Secondly, I've never been a fan of religious show boating. I have my own faith & while not ashamed of it, I don't believe it's something I need to wear on my sleeve for the world to see. I offer prayers on a regular basis (prayers for thanks, prayers for healing, prayers for wisdom or patience to deal with a difficult situation, etc.) but I don't make them a spectator sport - I wait for a private moment. I don't use every conversation to browbeat people about my belief system. And though I don't personally engage in the activity on my own, I don't oppose my mother's or in-law's tendency to offer thanks in a restaurant where others will see us because they do it quietly & discreetly (as part of their normal pre-meal ritual), not to provide a showing of how devout they are.

My belief for some time has been that if you have to constantly tell people what a good person you are, maybe you're not actually so great. My actions and words will tell far more about me in the end than whether I carried a Bible everywhere I went and called out God's name for various achievements throughout my day.
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Old 12-29-2011, 01:38 PM   #47
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BluRmGrl, I'd like to learn more about your magical, purple dragon
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Old 12-29-2011, 01:45 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by BluRmGrl View Post
If I choose to believe there is a magical, ancient, purple dragon who lives under the sea & grants my wishes if I stand on my head & chant "Ipsy, dipsy, tinky doo, fluffernutter bramblescratch dew", then it is my inherent right to do so.
You know, I'd actually kinda like to join that religion, simply because of that chant .

Seriously, excellent post.
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Old 12-29-2011, 01:48 PM   #49
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BluRmGrl, I'd like to learn more about your magical, purple dragon
Make sure your toaster is disengaged for the next few days & I'll have some pamphlets materialized there for you soon.

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You know, I'd actually kinda like to join that religion, simply because of that chant .

Seriously, excellent post.
Thank you.
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:10 PM   #50
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Please enlighten us with the moral of this story. The fact that you think Jesus actually said that means you've completely missed my point
On a more careful reading of both your post and of the original passage, I see a little more where you were coming from and the point you were trying to make.

The implication in your post is that this story is clearly a set up to make sure the faithful are giving til it hurts to the church.

And reading the passage, there doesn't seem to be a clear "point" on first read to the story, so I suppose your interpretation is one possible conclusion, though it's not the one I'm familiar with. My response was based on the most common interpretation of the meaning of the text which I grant may not be immediately clear reading the passage in isolation.

My understanding has been that this story is dealing the ostentatious giving--giving to show what a Big Deal you are, and how generous you clearly are based on the vast sums you've given. Jesus' point was that giving for show doesn't have a great deal of worth in Heaven's eyes and that giving a little out of your great wealth doesn't demonstrate particularly great generosity in the way that giving much of the little of you have does, even if the dollar figure is small.

If you read the context surrounding the story, this interpretation makes a lot of sense. In verse 38 Jesus says "Beware the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places, and chief seats in the synagogues, and places of honor at banquets, who devour widows houses, and for appearance sake offer long prayers, or tebow after ever football game [okay I added that last part], these will receive greater condemnation." The story we're discussing immediately follows this passage, and in that context the interpretation of critiquing ostentatious but essentially unsacrifical giving makes sense.

Let me add that whether you believe Jesus told this story or of this was just a conocoction of the church fathers later on down the road is beside the point. Just treat it as literature if you like.

At any rate, if some group of nefarious church fathers was gathered around trying to figure out how to manipulate the sheeple in their flock into giving every single cent to the church I think they could have done a better job.

First they could have had the widow giving her two cents to his own ministry, rather than the temple who he was opposing. Presuming the anti-Jewish sentiment of the church fathers, the criticism of the Jewish scribes would make sense, but not the comendation for giving to the very organization they are trying to discredit. It would have made more sense for Jesus to have been comending the woman for giving to him and to applaud the woman not simply for giving "more" than the others but for having given "enough." Then he could have thrown in a "great shall be her place in the Kingdom of Heaven. All ye who would be my true followers and escape condemnation, go thou and do likewise." Much more effective, if you ask me.
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:10 PM   #51
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Not quite sure how you got that from the above quote.
i was not commenting on the bible passage; rather, on what i believe indy's interpretation of it to be based on his last few posts. it looked to me like he was basically saying that you should not hold those with wealth accountable because those without wealth are not acting like the woman in that parable.
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:19 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by BluRmGrl View Post
Bill Maher's raison d'etre is to say things that piss people off. He's done that. My issue with Tebow's displays has nothing to do with him personally - what little I know of him is that he appears to be a grounded, compassionate person who volunteers his time and money to causes that he feels strongly for & has a strong Christian faith. All fine things, IMO.

My issues here are twofold: firstly, Maher (and a large number of other atheists) do the very thing they (not unfairly) accuse most religious folks of doing, which is to refuse to accept that you came by your way of thinking on your own, the same as they did. If I choose to believe there is a magical, ancient, purple dragon who lives under the sea & grants my wishes if I stand on my head & chant "Ipsy, dipsy, tinky goo, fluffernutter bramblescratch dew", then it is my inherent right to do so. It is not your right, your place, or your mission to tell me otherwise. If I'm wrong, I'll have to face those consequences at some time, same as you.

Secondly, I've never been a fan of religious show boating. I have my own faith & while not ashamed of it, I don't believe it's something I need to wear on my sleeve for the world to see. I offer prayers on a regular basis (prayers for thanks, prayers for healing, prayers for wisdom or patience to deal with a difficult situation, etc.) but I don't make them a spectator sport - I wait for a private moment. I don't use every conversation to browbeat people about my belief system. And though I don't personally engage in the activity on my own, I don't oppose my mother's or in-law's tendency to offer thanks in a restaurant where others will see us because they do it quietly & discreetly (as part of their normal pre-meal ritual), not to provide a showing of how devout they are.

My belief for some time has been that if you have to constantly tell people what a good person you are, maybe you're not actually so great. My actions and words will tell far more about me in the end than whether I carried a Bible everywhere I went and called out God's name for various achievements throughout my day.
This.

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BluRmGrl, I'd like to learn more about your magical, purple dragon
As would I.

Man, if that really worked you'd eclipse every other religion in the world in a heartbeat. I hate to say it but no other religion in the world can claim that kind of consistency of results.

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i was not commenting on the bible passage; rather, on what i believe indy's interpretation of it to be based on his last few posts. it looked to me like he was basically saying that you should not hold those with wealth accountable because those without wealth are not acting like the woman in that parable.
I got more that he was arguing that you don't have to be rich to give back in some small way. After all the discussion wasn't about Tim Tebow's not needing to be a philanthropist, but whether his philanthropy was a luxury he could afford to indulge in that little people like the rest of can't.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:03 PM   #53
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My understanding has been that this story is dealing the ostentatious giving--giving to show what a Big Deal you are, and how generous you clearly are based on the vast sums you've given. Jesus' point was that giving for show doesn't have a great deal of worth in Heaven's eyes and that giving a little out of your great wealth doesn't demonstrate particularly great generosity in the way that giving much of the little of you have does, even if the dollar figure is small.
That's what I got from it, too, and even though they reference money in the story, I also see it in a non-monetary sense, too-sort of like, those who struggle in general have more sympathy for others in times of need than those who've never known what it's like to go without. Or something along that line.

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If you read the context surrounding the story, this interpretation makes a lot of sense. In verse 38 Jesus says "Beware the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places, and chief seats in the synagogues, and places of honor at banquets, who devour widows houses, and for appearance sake offer long prayers, or tebow after ever football game [okay I added that last part], these will receive greater condemnation."
This brings up something I often wonder about. Jesus seems to often talk about humility and avoiding phoniness...which makes me wonder why some people seem to completely ignore those lessons and instead wish to be showy, and con artists (those televangelists who leech off the poor old people for their money, for instance). It always strikes me odd when I see people who claim to be such followers of Jesus and yet seem to pay absolutely zero attention to his teachings.

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Let me add that whether you believe Jesus told this story or of this was just a conocoction of the church fathers later on down the road is beside the point. Just treat it as literature if you like.
Precisely. Essentially, that's what the Bible is. A collection of stories.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:25 PM   #54
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I have never been so glad to know nothing about football or this Tebow fella.

As for Twitter - why does anyone get upset about anything posted on there? The place is essentially a cesspool of private thought that happens to have been put out into the public domain. The sheer amount of stupidity that is posted by people there every second of the day never fails to surprise - and I say this as somebody who does have an account (albeit uses it infrequently).
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Old 12-29-2011, 04:10 PM   #55
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Precisely. Essentially, that's what the Bible is. A collection of stories.
Well, it's more than that to me. But I don't think a person has to share my views on the nature of the Bible to be able to discuss it intelligently or suggest what it might mean. For example, one might argue that Shakespeare didn't really write the works attributed to him, but that doesn't preclude you from discussing the works.
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:19 PM   #56
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On a more careful reading of both your post and of the original passage, I see a little more where you were coming from and the point you were trying to make.

The implication in your post is that this story is clearly a set up to make sure the faithful are giving til it hurts to the church.

And reading the passage, there doesn't seem to be a clear "point" on first read to the story, so I suppose your interpretation is one possible conclusion, though it's not the one I'm familiar with. My response was based on the most common interpretation of the meaning of the text which I grant may not be immediately clear reading the passage in isolation.

My understanding has been that this story is dealing the ostentatious giving--giving to show what a Big Deal you are, and how generous you clearly are based on the vast sums you've given. Jesus' point was that giving for show doesn't have a great deal of worth in Heaven's eyes and that giving a little out of your great wealth doesn't demonstrate particularly great generosity in the way that giving much of the little of you have does, even if the dollar figure is small.

If you read the context surrounding the story, this interpretation makes a lot of sense. In verse 38 Jesus says "Beware the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places, and chief seats in the synagogues, and places of honor at banquets, who devour widows houses, and for appearance sake offer long prayers, or tebow after ever football game [okay I added that last part], these will receive greater condemnation." The story we're discussing immediately follows this passage, and in that context the interpretation of critiquing ostentatious but essentially unsacrifical giving makes sense.

Let me add that whether you believe Jesus told this story or of this was just a conocoction of the church fathers later on down the road is beside the point. Just treat it as literature if you like.

At any rate, if some group of nefarious church fathers was gathered around trying to figure out how to manipulate the sheeple in their flock into giving every single cent to the church I think they could have done a better job.

First they could have had the widow giving her two cents to his own ministry, rather than the temple who he was opposing. Presuming the anti-Jewish sentiment of the church fathers, the criticism of the Jewish scribes would make sense, but not the comendation for giving to the very organization they are trying to discredit. It would have made more sense for Jesus to have been comending the woman for giving to him and to applaud the woman not simply for giving "more" than the others but for having given "enough." Then he could have thrown in a "great shall be her place in the Kingdom of Heaven. All ye who would be my true followers and escape condemnation, go thou and do likewise." Much more effective, if you ask me.

Good post.
While I would argue that most of the stories in all religions are designed benefit the church (whether through monetary gains or through the old guilt/salvation, you need us avenue), if you're getting positive messages from the them, then that's all that really matters for you. It's not so much religion itself that I'm suspicious of, but organized, centralized religion. And to just touch on a comment you made earlier, as I think it's important to say, my unfandom (I know that's not a word) of Christianity isn't any stronger than with any other religion. They all get the same, equal stink eye from me
It just really bothers me when, in my eyes, the manipulation is so blatant, yet people are either willing to look past it, willfully blind to it, or too gullible to see it, and the church sits back and reaps the rewards... Often at the expense of people's well being
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Old 12-29-2011, 06:16 PM   #57
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Good post.

It just really bothers me when, in my eyes, the manipulation is so blatant, yet people are either willing to look past it, willfully blind to it, or too gullible to see it, and the church sits back and reaps the rewards... Often at the expense of people's well being
A fair criticism.

Sadly the preachers "on the old time gospel hour stealing from money from the sick and the old" make up more than a minority among us.

Of course being an Interlander you know what God I believe in. . .
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Old 12-29-2011, 06:23 PM   #58
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My issues here are twofold: firstly, Maher (and a large number of other atheists) do the very thing they (not unfairly) accuse most religious folks of doing, which is to refuse to accept that you came by your way of thinking on your own, the same as they did. If I choose to believe there is a magical, ancient, purple dragon who lives under the sea & grants my wishes if I stand on my head & chant "Ipsy, dipsy, tinky goo, fluffernutter bramblescratch dew", then it is my inherent right to do so. It is not your right, your place, or your mission to tell me otherwise. If I'm wrong, I'll have to face those consequences at some time, same as you.

Secondly, I've never been a fan of religious show boating. I have my own faith & while not ashamed of it, I don't believe it's something I need to wear on my sleeve for the world to see. I offer prayers on a regular basis (prayers for thanks, prayers for healing, prayers for wisdom or patience to deal with a difficult situation, etc.) but I don't make them a spectator sport - I wait for a private moment. I don't use every conversation to browbeat people about my belief system. And though I don't personally engage in the activity on my own, I don't oppose my mother's or in-law's tendency to offer thanks in a restaurant where others will see us because they do it quietly & discreetly (as part of their normal pre-meal ritual), not to provide a showing of how devout they are.

My belief for some time has been that if you have to constantly tell people what a good person you are, maybe you're not actually so great. My actions and words will tell far more about me in the end than whether I carried a Bible everywhere I went and called out God's name for various achievements throughout my day.
All very good points

As for Tim Tebow he's still very young and that's what he grew up with from the time he's old enough to remember. With both of his parents being missionaries and starting their own church. I don't think he's constantly telling people what a good person he is, but of course he is very vocal in his beliefs and praise and all that. I don't care for showboating either, religious or otherwise. My favorite quarterback is probably Drew Brees, I read his book and if he is genuinely the guy in that book well he's just one of the best guys around. He talks about his religious beliefs in the book and about what he has done with his charitable foundation. Not in a bragging way, he is a humble and classy guy. He's someone I want to believe in.

Everyone has their own style as far as that's concerned, I just prefer to concentrate on my own and let everyone else just decide for themselves. Tim Tebow is putting himself out there in a big way because of course people are waiting for the inevitable fall. Some cheering for it, maybe even hoping for it. All athletes are put on pedestals and eventually they will all fall off in one way or another, to greater or lesser degrees.
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Old 12-29-2011, 06:53 PM   #59
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As for Twitter - why does anyone get upset about anything posted on there? The place is essentially a cesspool of private thought that happens to have been put out into the public domain. The sheer amount of stupidity that is posted by people there every second of the day never fails to surprise - and I say this as somebody who does have an account (albeit uses it infrequently).
Bravo.

All these social networking sites (Facebook and Twitter) are nothing more than a means for people to mouth off while hiding behind a computer screen. As if being insulted in person wasn't bad enough.

But that's a different topic that deserves its own thread.

Anyway, carry on...
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:56 PM   #60
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All these social networking sites (Facebook and Twitter) are nothing more than a means for people to mouth off while hiding behind a computer screen.
I don't know what you use your facebook account for, but I certainly don't use mine for that...
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