BBC: What Happened to Global Warming?

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So let me get this straight...

A bunch of marxists set out a plan, then bullied a few scientists(because only a minority believe) into making up climate change so that they can take over the world?

I needed a good laugh, thanks...

Almost right. More like researchers worked with the U.N. (full of socialists) to produce studies that guaranteed funding, because socialists would like to create a world bureaucracy as posted in that prior video. You should read more on Maurice Strong. Since I'm Canadian I know him, but he was a big part of the IPCC and as I quoted him in a prior article he's not very impressed with the ballot box.

On another note, here is someone very interested in the meeting in Copenhagen:

YouTube - Climate change scam to tax and control

Though I would go farther than him and ask how the medieval warming period doesn't exist and yet there are viking graves under the permafrost. Last I knew it would be very hard to dig graves or farm in permafrost.

Here's some more on Australians worried about increased energy bills:

YouTube - Climate crunch: David Bellamy on global warming fraud

Here's more on what bothers the skeptics:

My Top 10 Annoyances in the Climate Change Debate � Roy Spencer, Ph. D.

My Top 10 Annoyances in the Climate Change Debate
November 28th, 2009 by Roy W. Spencer, Ph. D.
Well, maybe not my top 10…but the first ten that I thought of.

1. The term “climate change” itself. Thirty years ago, the term “climate change” would have meant natural climate change, which is what climate scientists mostly studied before that time. Today, it has come to mean human-caused climate change. The public, and especially the media, now think that “climate change” implies WE are responsible for it. Mother Nature, not Al Gore, invented real climate change.

2. “Climate change denier”. A first cousin to the first annoyance. Again, thirty years ago, “climate change denier” would have meant someone who denied that the Medieval Warm Period ever happened. Or that the Little Ice Age ever happened. What a kook fringe thing to believe that would have been! And now, those of us who still believe in natural climate change are called “climate change deniers”?? ARGHH.

3. The appeal to peer-reviewed and published research. I could go on about this for pages. Yes, it is important to have scientific research peer-reviewed and published. But as the Climategate e-mails have now exposed (and what many scientists already knew), we skeptics of human-caused climate change have “peers” out there who have taken it upon themselves to block our research from being published whenever possible. We know there are editors of scientific journals who assist in this by sending our papers to these gatekeepers for the purpose of killing the paper. We try not to complain too much when it happens because it is difficult to prove motivation. I believe the day is approaching when it will be time to make public the evidence of biased peer review.

4. Appeal to authority. This is the last refuge of IPCC scientists. Even when we skeptics get research published, it is claimed that our research is contradicted by other research the IPCC has encouraged, helped to get funded, and cherry-picked to support its case. This is dangerous for the progress of science. If the majority opinion of scientists was always assumed to be correct, then most major scientific advances would not have occurred. The appeal to authority is also a standard propaganda technique.

5. Unwillingness to debate. I have lectured to many groups where the organizers could not find anyone from the IPCC side who would present the IPCC’s side of the story. I would be happy to debate any of the IPCC experts on the central issues of human-caused versus natural climate change, and feedbacks in the climate system. They know where to find me. (For the most common tactic used by the IPCC in a debate, see annoyance #4.)

6. A lack of common sense. Common sense can be misleading, of course. But when there is considerable uncertainty, sometimes it is helpful to go ahead and use a little anyway. Example: It is well known that the net effect of clouds is to cool the Earth in response to radiant heating by the sun. But when it comes to global warming, all climate models do just the opposite…change clouds in ways that amplify radiative warming. While this is theoretically possible, it is critical to future projections of global warming that the reasons why models do this be thoroughly understood. Don’t believe it just because group think within the climate modeling community has decided it should be so.

7. Use of climate models as truth. Because there are not sufficient high-quality, globally-distributed, and long term observations of climate fluctuations to study and better understand the climate system with, computerized climate models are now regarded as truth. The modelers’ belief that climate models represent truth is evident from the language they use: climate models are not “tested” with real data, but instead “validated”. The implication is clear: if the data do not agree with the models, it must be the data’s fault.

8. Claims that climate models have been tested. A hallmark of a good theory is that it should predict something which, upon further investigation, turns out to be correct. To my knowledge, climate models have not yet forecasted anything of significance. And even if they did, models are ultimately being relied upon to forecast global warming (aka ‘climate change’). As far as I can tell, there is no good way to test them in this regard. And please don’t tell me they can now replicate the seasons quite well. Even the public could predict the seasons before there were climate models. Predicting future warming (or cooling) is slightly more difficult, but not by much: a flip a coin will be correct 50% of the time.

9. The claim that the IPCC is unbiased. The IPCC was formed for the explicit purpose of building the case for global warming being our fault, not for investigating the possibility that it is just part of a natural cycle in the climate system. Their accomplices in government have bought off the scientific community for the purpose of achieving specific policy goals.

10. The claim that reducing CO2 emissions is the right thing to do anyway. Oh, really? What if life on Earth (which requires CO2 for its existence) is actually benefiting from more CO2? Nature is always changing anyway…why must we always assume that every single change that humans cause is necessarily a bad thing? Even though virtually all Earth scientists believe this, too, it is not science, but religion. I’m all for religion…but not when it masquerades as science.

Ed Begley Jr.'s favorite term was "Peer review!", now another guy thinks that "George Bush" is a special term that will make Foxnews agree with AGW.

YouTube - CLIMATEGATE! Fox RIPS Global Warming Advocate! 1000's of Emails / Documents Reveal FRAUD!
 
Almost right. More like researchers worked with the U.N. (full of socialists) to produce studies that guaranteed funding, because socialists would like to create a world bureaucracy as posted in that prior video.

This just shows that you have absolutely NO grasp on this subject. You've been fed paranoia conspiracies and since they benefit your financial wants and you had no appreciation for science to begin with you fell for them hook line and sinker.

You do realize this is not a new theory and that there is research being done outside of the UN? Right? I mean you have to know this... right?:huh: This is what I was trying to get you to explain to me earlier, how did those scientist get affected? Did your socialist monster bribe them?
 
If I'd been told the past 10 years that scientists and their models predict with 100% certainty that a large comet will crash into the earth in our lifetimes, only to recently find out it was all either a hoax or wildly speculative... I'd be frickin jumping for joy.

Telling that we've heard no such sentiments from the Climate Change crowd.

Don't you at least hope we're right? Wouldn't that be good news?
 
Saying it's a hoax just shows you know very little about science, let alone other things in the world, maybe speculative could be a word you use, but it still shows a lack of understanding.

Do I hope you're right? Yeah, wouldn't it be nice to believe we live in an indistructible planet? Wouldn't it be nice to believe that no matter what we do, or how irreponsible we are it doesn't matter. Can someone sell me house that's like that?
 
This just shows that you have absolutely NO grasp on this subject. You've been fed paranoia conspiracies and since they benefit your financial wants and you had no appreciation for science to begin with you fell for them hook line and sinker.

I could easily point your comment towards the paranoia of climate change propaganda and talk about industries, governments, and politicians that want to benefit their financial wants from cap and trade.

You do realize this is not a new theory and that there is research being done outside of the UN? Right? I mean you have to know this... right?:huh: This is what I was trying to get you to explain to me earlier, how did those scientist get affected? Did your socialist monster bribe them?

I already answered this question. Socialist monsters want to use the appeal to authority to justify powergrabs. Climate modellers want continued funding. If they say there is no problem then the climate change people have to find other jobs. I already posted the swindle documentary where they talk about how climate science ballooned over the years. These emails are the beginning. When science journals start putting in skeptics in their journals and when skeptics are allowed in the peer-review process then I will say that things have improved.

Climategate begs the question: “is peer review in need of change”? � Watts Up With That?

If the practitioners of peer-review begin to act like members of an exclusive club controlling who and what gets published, the risk is run that the true course of science gets sidetracked. Even folks with the best intentions can be wrong. Having the process too tightly controlled can end up setting things back much further than a more loosely controlled process which is better at being self-correcting.

Do I hope you're right? Yeah, wouldn't it be nice to believe we live in an indistructible planet? Wouldn't it be nice to believe that no matter what we do, or how irreponsible we are it doesn't matter.

It would be nice if we could do without conventional energy that produces C02. Can someone give me a technology as cheap as oil that can replace it? If our struggling economy fails to grow (real growth not inflation) how will we find capital to invest in new efficient technologies? It's like people don't understand you can kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
 
I already answered this question. Socialist monsters want to use the appeal to authority to justify powergrabs. Climate modellers want continued funding. If they say there is no problem then the climate change people have to find other jobs. I already posted the swindle documentary where they talk about how climate science ballooned over the years. These emails are the beginning. When science journals start putting in skeptics in their journals and when skeptics are allowed in the peer-review process then I will say that things have improved.

I think it's funny that you think this answers anything I asked...:lol:

This was probably the simplest question asked of you in this whole debate and you still had to walk around it...
 
No wonder opinion polls show a majority of the population are sceptical about global warming. Just scanning the papers, the internet or watching TV is enough to convince anyone it’s just the usual apocalyptic hype. And, if they want to dig deeper into their own disbelief, there are shelfloads of books to give them a hand. There’s Nigel Lawson, ex-chancellor of the exchequer, with An Appeal to Reason. There’s Scared to Death by Christopher Booker and Richard North. There’s Cool It by Bjorn Lomborg. There was even a very serious documentary on Channel 4 called The Great Global Warming Swindle with some serious-looking science guys pouring cold water on the warming atmosphere.

Just a couple of weeks reading and watching and you can be out there, crushing dinner-party eco-warriors with devastating arguments based on cold, hard facts. You will be a stern, hard-headed denialist, your iron jaw set firmly against the tree-hugging, soft-headed warmists in their irritating hats.

That was me, once. I thought global warming was all bog-standard, apocalyptic nonsense when it first emerged in the 1980s. People, I knew, like nothing better than an End-of-the-World story to give their lives meaning. I also knew that science is dynamic. Big ideas rise and fall. Once the Earth was the centre of the universe. Then it wasn’t. Once Isaac Newton had completed physics. Then he hadn’t. Once there was going to be a new ice age. Then there wasn’t.

Armed with such historic reversals, I poured scorn on under-educated warmists. Scientists with access to the microphone, I pointed out, had got so much so wrong so often. This was yet another case of clever people, who should have known better, running around screaming, “End of the World! End of the World!” and of less-clever people finding reasons to tell everybody else why they were bad. And then I made a terrible mistake. I started questioning my instinct, which was to disbelieve every scare story on principle.

I exposed myself to any journalist’s worst nightmare — very thoughtful, intelligent people.
Global warming is real - Times Online
 
I could easily point your comment towards the paranoia of climate change propaganda and talk about industries, governments, and politicians that want to benefit their financial wants from cap and trade.

I already answered this question. Socialist monsters want to use the appeal to authority to justify powergrabs. Climate modellers want continued funding. If they say there is no problem then the climate change people have to find other jobs. I already posted the swindle documentary where they talk about how climate science ballooned over the years. These emails are the beginning. When science journals start putting in skeptics in their journals and when skeptics are allowed in the peer-review process then I will say that things have improved.
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You're absolutely right, and doing a good job arguing your position in this thread. The green lobby has gone well beyond $cience...it's dogma now.

Take a look at the pie-in-the-sky Waxman-Markey bill in the House. A ridiculous standard and damaging to an economy.
 
You're absolutely right, and doing a good job arguing your position in this thread. The green lobby has gone well beyond $cience...it's dogma now.

One can argue the means to which we react to the science all day long, sure. But do you really think he's doing a good job arguing his position? Do you believe the science wasn't there before some Marxists got their hands on it and then saw opportunity to take over the world, so they basically made the whole thing up? Really?
 
Do you believe the science wasn't there before some Marxists got their hands on it and then saw opportunity to take over the world, so they basically made the whole thing up? Really?

Which science would that be? The science that warned of a coming Ice Age, the science of our imminent demise due to Global Warming, or the current science of vague and subjective Climate Change?
 
In the information age, it will only be a matter of time before the myth of global warming is sidelined.

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Which science would that be? The science that warned of a coming Ice Age, the science of our imminent demise due to Global Warming, or the current science of vague and subjective Climate Change?



let's pretend for a moment, that there is no man-made global warming.

what difference should that make? isn't energy efficiency a good thing? isn't the pollution belched into the atmosphere a bad thing? wouldn't it be a good idea to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels so we can pull out of the most insane region of the globe? isn't conservation in and of itself a good thing? isn't it the responsible thing to do to leave as little of an footprint as possible? isn't it a good thing to simply be responsible stewards of the earth in order to preserve our own health? isn't being wasteful and gluttonous a bad thing?
 
Which science would that be? The science that warned of a coming Ice Age, the science of our imminent demise due to Global Warming, or the current science of vague and subjective Climate Change?

See, you're still politicizing it... For these extremes never existed, they're just perversions from those on the right that just don't understand science.
 
let's pretend for a moment, that there is no man-made global warming.

what difference should that make?
All the difference. It's the difference between renewable energy being economically feasible as opposed to be propped up with subsidies and taxes on competing forms of energy. It's the difference between using sacrifice, as opposed to the luxury of prosperity, to solve an expensive problem.

isn't energy efficiency a good thing?
Yes, but so is energy abundance and affordability.
isn't the pollution belched into the atmosphere a bad thing?
Yes, lead and sulfur dioxide are pollutants making up a small percentage of fossil fuel emissions. Carbon on the other hand is 75 to 90 percent. You can't call carbon a pollutant anymore than you can call oxygen and H2O pollutants because they cause rust.
wouldn't it be a good idea to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels so we can pull out of the most insane region of the globe?
Yes, but who opposes cheaper, "shovel ready" alternatives like nuclear energy or Drillbabydrill?
isn't conservation in and of itself a good thing?
Does that include the conservation of economic prosperity and personal freedom that cheap energy has afforded us?
isn't it the responsible thing to do to leave as little of an footprint as possible?
As long as my footprint is smaller than Al Gore's I ain't feeling guilty. But wouldn't Third World residents benefit from a larger footprint? By what right can we deprive them of what we've enjoyed?
isn't it a good thing to simply be responsible stewards of the earth in order to preserve our own health? isn't being wasteful and gluttonous a bad thing?

The Copenhagen treaty would require an 80% cut in Carbon emissions by 2050? Given our population in 2050, each American could have a carbon footprint no larger than an American circa 1825. Now are you prepared to say we have lived gluttonous lives since 1825?
 
The Copenhagen treaty would require an 80% cut in Carbon emissions by 2050? Given our population in 2050, each American could have a carbon footprint no larger than an American circa 1825. Now are you prepared to say we have lived gluttonous lives since 1825?

Of course, if you switch to carbon-free sources of energy like wind, solar, and nuclear power, coupled with the carbon-free fuels that can be generated from such sources like hydrogen fuel, then it is perfectly feasible to cut carbon emissions by 80% with no loss of lifestyle; and, I dare say it, with plentiful energy unrestricted by commodities market fluctuations and the looming prospect of scarcity, the future stands to have lives that are exponentially better than today. Just imagine if we could take our electrical and fuel sources for granted as much as, say, a light bulb? We are constantly surrounded by light sources and, more importantly, the applications that are possible--such as, say, televisions and computer monitors--thanks to innovations applied to it since then. There are tremendous limitations to what we can do from here, thanks to our stubborn insistence on sticking to a 19th century approach--that is, an over-reliance on inherently limited and nonrenewable fossil fuels--to energy.

Climate change or no, the longer we insist on sticking with coal and oil, the longer we will stagnate and decline economically. And you're right...the third-world will insist on improving their lifestyles. All the more it is imperative that we immediately move beyond fossil fuels.
 
All the difference. It's the difference between renewable energy being economically feasible as opposed to be propped up with subsidies and taxes on competing forms of energy. It's the difference between using sacrifice, as opposed to the luxury of prosperity, to solve an expensive problem.


Yes, but so is energy abundance and affordability.

Yes, lead and sulfur dioxide are pollutants making up a small percentage of fossil fuel emissions. Carbon on the other hand is 75 to 90 percent. You can't call carbon a pollutant anymore than you can call oxygen and H2O pollutants because they cause rust.

Yes, but who opposes cheaper, "shovel ready" alternatives like nuclear energy or Drillbabydrill?

Does that include the conservation of economic prosperity and personal freedom that cheap energy has afforded us?

As long as my footprint is smaller than Al Gore's I ain't feeling guilty. But wouldn't Third World residents benefit from a larger footprint? By what right can we deprive them of what we've enjoyed?


The Copenhagen treaty would require an 80% cut in Carbon emissions by 2050? Given our population in 2050, each American could have a carbon footprint no larger than an American circa 1825. Now are you prepared to say we have lived gluttonous lives since 1825?



so, really you're just being contrarian in order to remain loyal to your chosen political side?

also, i find it funny when people say that alternative energy is "propped-up" and "subsidized" -- as if the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Gulf Wars 1 and 2 oil isn't.
 
Of course, if you switch to carbon-free sources of energy like wind, solar, and nuclear power, coupled with the carbon-free fuels that can be generated from such sources like hydrogen fuel, then it is perfectly feasible to cut carbon emissions by 80% with no loss of lifestyle, and, I dare say it, with plentiful energy unrestricted by commodities market fluctuations and the looming prospect of scarcity, the future stands to have lives that are exponentially better than today. Just imagine if we could take our electrical and fuel sources for granted as much as, say, a light bulb? We are constantly surrounded by light sources and, more importantly, the applications that are possible--such as, say, televisions and computer monitors--thanks to innovations applied to it since then. There are tremendous limitations to what we can do from here, thanks to our stubborn insistence on sticking to a 19th century approach--that is, an over-reliance on inherently limited and nonrenewable fossil fuels--to energy.

Climate change or no, the longer we insist on sticking with coal and oil, the longer we will stagnate and decline economically. And you're right...the third-world will insist on improving their lifestyles. All the more it is imperative that we immediately move beyond fossil fuels.

Again, who has the STOP sign out on nuclear power?

I would hope we have alternatives by 2050 but are we more likely to make the technological gains necessary by squeezing off economic growth or with a robust, albeit for now fossil fuel driven, economy? Are not the cleanest countries also the most prosperous?
 
Again, who has the STOP sign out on nuclear power?


at $10bn a plant? that's a lot of socialism. think of all the wars we could fight with that money.


I would hope we have alternatives by 2050 but are we more likely to make the technological gains necessary by squeezing off economic growth or with a robust, albeit for now fossil fuel driven, economy? Are not the cleanest countries also the most prosperous?


gas tax! gas tax! $1 a gallon!
 
i don't feel like reading through this whole thread.

so....is Global Warming still real? was Dennis Quaid right?
 
On Nov. 2, The Wall Street Journal's Jeffrey Ball reported some inconvenient data. Soon after the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change—it shared the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize with the Thinking Man's Thinking Man—reported that global warming is "unequivocal," there came evidence that the planet's temperature is beginning to cool. "That," Ball writes, "has led to one point of agreement: The models are imperfect."

Meanwhile, however, the crusade against warming will brook no interference from information. With the Waxman-Markey bill, the House of Representatives has endorsed reducing greenhouse-gas emissions to 83 per-cent below 2005 levels by 2050. This is surely the most preposterous legislation ever hatched in the House. Using Energy Department historical statistics, Kenneth P. Green and Steven F. Hayward of the American Enterprise Institute have calculated this:

Waxman-Markey's goal is just slightly more than 1 billion tons of greenhouse-gas emissions in 2050. The last time this nation had that small an amount was 1910, when there were only 92 million Americans, 328 million fewer than the 420 million projected for 2050. To meet the 83 percent reduction target in a nation of 420 million, per capita carbon-dioxide emissions would have to be no more than 2.4 tons per person, which is one quarter the per capita emissions of 1910, a level probably last seen when the population was 45 million—in 1875.

George Will: The Truth About Global Warming | Newsweek George F. Will | Newsweek.com
 
oh, 1875 rather than 1825, but preposterous certainly sums it up.

Hitch-up your wagon America.

Let's see how "advanced" the U.S. will be with $200+/bbl oil and third-world nations no longer contented to be mere producers and exporters of goods to feed the voracious American appetite for consumption. That's precisely what you'll get by doing nothing at all.
 
Again, who has the STOP sign out on nuclear power?

I would hope we have alternatives by 2050 but are we more likely to make the technological gains necessary by squeezing off economic growth or with a robust, albeit for now fossil fuel driven, economy? Are not the cleanest countries also the most prosperous?

Infrastructure requires long-term vision and investment--neither of which is possible when corporations are more interested in meeting quarterly profit targets. What did California's utility companies do once they went private? Did they magically increase production? No, they cut it and raised prices. This kind of short-term thinking by corporate America will do nothing to advance progress when it is far more profitable to cut production and raise prices on products with few real competitors and fairly inelastic demand like electricity.

When we wanted to build the Internet, land on the moon, or even create the atomic bomb, it required both the vision and long-term R&D that generally only government is willing to do. I find it doubtful that our superficially "magnanimous" private sector will suddenly change their behaviours and actually accomplish these key national security goals without being compelled to.
 
Infrastructure requires long-term vision and investment--neither of which is possible when corporations are more interested in meeting quarterly profit targets.
They are hindered by overburdening regulations and an uncertain political environment as well.

What did California's utility companies do once they went private? Did they magically increase production? No, they cut it and raised prices. This kind of short-term thinking by corporate America will do nothing to advance progress when it is far more profitable to cut production and raise prices on products with few real competitors and fairly inelastic demand like electricity.

When we wanted to build the Internet, land on the moon, or even create the atomic bomb, it required both the vision and long-term R&D that generally only government is willing to do. I find it doubtful that our superficially "magnanimous" private sector will suddenly change their behaviours and actually accomplish these key national security goals without being compelled to.

Large, single goal projects no doubt require the resources of government but I give you the example of the phone as proof that competition and profit can change the behavior of private enterprise. We went from phones remaining unchanged under a monopoly for 30 years to phones that are now obsolete before their warranty can even run out.
 
Large, single goal projects no doubt require the resources of government but I give you the example of the phone as proof that competition and profit can change the behavior of private enterprise. We went from phones remaining unchanged under a monopoly for 30 years to phones that are now obsolete before their warranty can even run out.

Of course, this was after decades of regulation and universal service requirements. Undoubtedly, there is such a thing as outdated regulations, and it is good that AT&T was forcibly broken up in the name of competition.

Nonetheless, look at what these same companies have done with the internet. With no universal service requirements, they're content to pick and choose where they want to roll out high-speed internet, and they are nowhere near as fast or cheap as, say, South Korea and Japan, where the broadband rollout was mandated. And competition, in all but the largest of markets, is as elusive as ever.

I'd say that the lesson worth learning here is that we need ambitious vision and regulation to build the infrastructure, but once enough time has passed, many of the regulations can be lessened, as long-term ambitions can give way to short-sighted profiteering.
 
Let's see how "advanced" the U.S. will be with $200+/bbl oil and third-world nations no longer contented to be mere producers and exporters of goods to feed the voracious American appetite for consumption. That's precisely what you'll get by doing nothing at all.

Cap and Trade schemes would only make matters worse as our industries would only "outsource" work to countries with cheaper energy and no burden of a carbon cap. We would no longer import crude for example but also refined gasoline as domestic refineries closed (taking jobs with them) in this country.

For economic reasons (no other source can compete with the energy density of fossil fuels) and because of their nature (the supply of renewable energies rarely corresponds with energy demand), carbon based energy is not going away anytime soon. And to hasten its demise on the basis of speculative, politically-polluted science hardly seems prudent.
 
Nonetheless, look at what these same companies have done with the internet. With no universal service requirements, they're content to pick and choose where they want to roll out high-speed internet, and they are nowhere near as fast or cheap as, say, South Korea and Japan, where the broadband rollout was mandated. And competition, in all but the largest of markets, is as elusive as ever.
Well, a bit out of my causal knowledge base here, but it would be interesting to know if those other countries didn't pay handsomely for the benefits you describe indirectly through taxes or partial nationalization of telecommunication companies. Again, I don't know. But I do know the United States is a hell of a lot larger than those two countries, with 50 separate sets of regulations to boot, which can only slow and add costs to such rollouts.
 
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