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Old 02-08-2011, 12:18 PM   #601
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It probably has a large carbon footprint, indeed. That doesn't change the science or the problem, it simply means that we are far from the solution.
I think that this another case where the BBC (and other corporations) are seen to be hypocrites. A few years ago Channel 4 did a 2 hour documentary arguing for man made climate change and the week after the same broadcaster did another 2 hour climate change is nothing to do with us. Representatives scientists from both side of the argument both appeared on a Channel 4 talk show. Last year they did another documentary titled What The Green Movement Got Wrong followed by an hour live studio discussion where scientists from both sides argument debated their views. Viewers also put their views across by sending texts and emails. That is what you call a balanced discussion.


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Almost every activity, in some way or another, pollutes.
And people wonder why we don't just switch everything off. Are you willing to stop using your computer, car and electrical appliance just like that?

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An independent inquiry into these emails proved that there was no wrong doing or falsification in the work. This scandal was a carefully timed attempt (prior to Copenhagen) to cast doubts on the integrity of scientists by taking a few emails out of context. Nothing wrong was going on.
Yeah I heard that so called independent inquiry as well (on the BBC of course). But did you hear about the many scientists who dispute man-made climate change said that the inquiry was not thorough enough in order to get a fair assessment. One scientist called it a white wash. I forget his name, but they are scientists on both side of the argument. Besides Al Gore isn't a Scientist either is he?



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Fair enough. There are extremists on both sides of this issue, and there are people who would benefit from action or inaction on this issue. This is inevitable, and is present in every issue. But here again, you have to be careful to ignore demagogues and people who have a particularly large stake in the economic ramifications of an issue.
Unless you haven't noticed, the worldwide economic situation is in a lot dog pooh at the moment. I don't see how any of our countries will ever pay off their national debts certainly not in my lifetime.





You have to stop reading into all the propaganda. There is propaganda from extreme environmentalists (unrealistic expectations about energy use and demand), just like there is propaganda from extreme deniers (climate change is a socialist hoax, clean technologies are evil). Try to find the middle ground, and discuss pragmatic solutions to a problem that is very real.[/QUOTE]
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Old 02-08-2011, 10:12 PM   #602
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I'll bite again.

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I think that this another case where the BBC (and other corporations) are seen to be hypocrites. A few years ago Channel 4 did a 2 hour documentary arguing for man made climate change and the week after the same broadcaster did another 2 hour climate change is nothing to do with us. Representatives scientists from both side of the argument both appeared on a Channel 4 talk show. Last year they did another documentary titled What The Green Movement Got Wrong followed by an hour live studio discussion where scientists from both sides argument debated their views. Viewers also put their views across by sending texts and emails. That is what you call a balanced discussion.
A balanced discussion would respect the weights of each "side". This is not a 50-50 case where there are as many people disputing the phenomenon as there are asserting it. Qualified, experienced scientists disputing climate change are in a very small minority.

That being said, we do need serious, balanced discussion on the repercussions of this changing climate and the way to mitigate it / adapt to it. Scientists are past the question of whether greenhouse gas emissions contribute to climate change - the question has now shifted to devising our best course of action, whatever this means.

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And people wonder why we don't just switch everything off. Are you willing to stop using your computer, car and electrical appliance just like that?
Of course not. That is simply not going to happen. The key here is to improve the way we do things: reduce inefficiencies on the supply and demand sides, harness cleaner energy sources, control pollutant emissions, etc. This is being done by countless companies and countries, most often with profit. Doing more with less; or rather, doing more but differently. Even the U.S., back in the late 70s during the oil crisis, managed to grow its economy substantially while significantly curtailing its oil consumption.

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Yeah I heard that so called independent inquiry as well (on the BBC of course). But did you hear about the many scientists who dispute man-made climate change said that the inquiry was not thorough enough in order to get a fair assessment. One scientist called it a white wash. I forget his name, but they are scientists on both side of the argument.
Again, this is not a 50-50 issue. As for the emails, I suggest that you take a look at the inquiry report and the actual emails - there is nothing that suggests wrongdoing of any scale. This was a nice PR move prior to Copenhagen, nothing more.

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Besides Al Gore isn't a Scientist either is he?
Al Gore is completely irrelevant to this situation. Sure, he is trying to draw attention to an issue that is dear to him, imperfectly perhaps, but he in no way proves or disproves anything.

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Unless you haven't noticed, the worldwide economic situation is in a lot dog pooh at the moment. I don't see how any of our countries will ever pay off their national debts certainly not in my lifetime.
You will have to elaborate on your point here.

In any case, it is true that the economic situation put a damper on some investments, especially in the US. Environmental stewardship and profitability are often construed as being competing, trade-offs of sorts. This is understandable, especially in a business environment currently short on capital.

Nevertheless, the business world is rife with examples where sustainable business practices lead to profits. While the US is making up its mind on its course of action, other countries are not shying away from innovation and making huge strides in fields that will be critical in a world with limited resources and strong environmental concerns. The US economy will be in a severe slump if it does not get its act together on this.
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Old 02-14-2011, 10:33 AM   #603
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Holy crap

Reuters reports:

The biggest snowfall in a century has buried cities in eastern South Korea and prompted rescue operations involving some 12,000 soldiers, as the coldest winter in years grips the peninsula.

Hundreds of motorists were stranded and dozens of buildings collapsed after more than a metre of snow fell over some parts of the region over the weekend. The weather bureau has forecast more heavy snow for the region on Monday.

The country's capital, Seoul, and main industrial hubs were not affected by the storm.

The heavy snow comes just a few weeks after temperatures hit record lows, causing the Han River in central Seoul to ice over for the first time in years.

North Korea also recorded its coldest January in 26 years.

The BBC quoted a local newspaper that described the region being hit by a "snow bomb". A local resident, Park Chae-ran, said "I am 83 years old. It's the heaviest snow in my life. I am really grateful for the soldiers' help."

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Old 02-14-2011, 12:28 PM   #604
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Whoa.

Man, I don't even think I'VE seen that much snow before! That's insane.

Angela
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:38 PM   #605
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Awesome!

Hey, I love snow! We don't get much of it around here...
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:20 AM   #606
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You can have all of mine. I'll Fed Ex it to you.

It's so pretty when it's black and filthy on the sides of the roads too.
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:32 AM   #607
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You can have all of mine. I'll Fed Ex it to you.

It's so pretty when it's black and filthy on the sides of the roads too.
I like seeing the filth strata after a plow has been by.
Gray, White, Black, maybe a sand layer in there--fascinating. Did anyone mention it's been a long winter?

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Old 02-15-2011, 02:43 PM   #608
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A balanced discussion would respect the weights of each "side". This is not a 50-50 case where there are as many people disputing the phenomenon as there are asserting it. Qualified, experienced scientists disputing climate change are in a very small minority.
Climate and the environment are far too complex for any of us to understand, so to have so-called scientist to proclaim they have all the answers to know its cause is completely false.

Have you ever heard the phrase they use when they say "since records began" ? This demonstrates that scientists have only been keeping records for a tiny fraction of planet earth's existence. Furthermore humans themselves have only been occupying earth for a minimal amount of time. What do you think the naughty dinosaurs had done to bring about the catastrophic events that brought their downful? Were the T-Rex's poluting the environment with carbon by driving gas guzzlers? There arms were rather short to reach the steering wheel weren't they? We live in a volatile solar system. I've heard scientists say that we are overdue for a major natural environmental disaster. That Icelandic volcanic eruption last year was tiny. They are many large dangerous volcano's that are close to erupting and thus ripping out all life. Volcano's are major contributer to carbon in the atmosphere.

It is arrogant to suggest that humble earthlings are capable of bringing armaggedon. Planet earth has been the home to far larger species.


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Again, this is not a 50-50 issue. As for the emails, I suggest that you take a look at the inquiry report and the actual emails - there is nothing that suggests wrongdoing of any scale. This was a nice PR move prior to Copenhagen, nothing more.

That's not what I heard. I've heard scientists from various sources calling the investigation fraudulent.

They are those who claim environmentalist are anti-capitalists who do not want vulnerable people to make a decent living for themselves. "They should not cut down the Amazon rainforest" They have to don't they?
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:13 PM   #609
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Size doesn't matter.

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Planet earth has been the home to far larger species.
Larger in terms of size, sure. But in terms of destruction of its surroundings and usage of the Earth's resources, no species has ever come even remotely close to humans.
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:45 PM   #610
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It is arrogant to suggest that humble earthlings are capable of bringing armaggedon. Planet earth has been the home to far larger species.

But it's not arrogant to think we can do whatever we want and not impact the environment around us? Really?
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:30 PM   #611
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It is arrogant to suggest that humble earthlings are capable of bringing armaggedon. Planet earth has been the home to far larger species.
Oh, yeah, the planet itself will still exist and just rebuild and revitalize itself until whatever space-related disaster (asteroids, black holes, burning up from the sun if that whole sense of order gets out of whack, whatever) out there destroys it. And you're right that some of this change is natural. Indeed, there are some shifts in the earth's environment we're not going to be able to do anything about.

But our pollution and abuse of the land we've been fortunate enough to spend this time on doesn't exactly HELP matters, and even if it doesn't destroy the earth itself, it hurts us as a society. People can get sick and die off this crap. So on that level, at least, that should give you cause for some concern.

Angela
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:39 PM   #612
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YouTube - Inhofe Takes on Global Warming Alarmist Attempted Ambush

Thank God for Senator Inhofe! See Republicans are looking out for the next generation. They are going to prevent more lost jobs from higher energy prices so that there will be a future. That will include jobs for Democrats who can't get a "green" job.
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:42 PM   #613
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But it's not arrogant to think we can do whatever we want and not impact the environment around us? Really?

I have never agreed that we can just trash the planet.

My question has been about the scare tactics being used by the doom day prophets of "Climate Change."

Are we heretics if we question their science or opinion?




Target Earth International -- Target Earth Resources -- Refusing and Recycling
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:57 PM   #614
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Thank God for Senator Inhofe! See Republicans are looking out for the next generation. They are going to prevent more lost jobs from higher energy prices so that there will be a future. That will include jobs for Democrats who can't get a "green" job.
Errrrrr...no.

I've heard Inhofe's take on global warming (and other various issues). He's an idiot.

Angela
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Old 02-15-2011, 10:01 PM   #615
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It is arrogant to suggest that humble earthlings are capable of bringing armaggedon. Planet earth has been the home to far larger species.
Arrogant?

You seem to be approaching this whole issue from a very emotional, almost spiritual angle ("Nature cannot possibly be bothered by humans"), with little respect for facts or critical thinking. There are many examples where humans affect their environment: the urban heat island effect, acid rain from sulphur oxide emissions, smog from particulate matter and nitrogen oxide emissions, ozone depletion, etc. The latter is an interesting example in light of the current political issues surrounding climate change: we figured out one of the causes of ozone depletion (the use of CFCs), acted on it (the Montreal Protocol), and now the ozone layer is reportedly slowly recovering (let's not jump the shark yet, but still).

The same goes for greenhouse gases. Human activity releases abnormally high amounts of greenhouse gases, leading to an increase in their concentration in the atmosphere. Absolutely no debate here. The fact that some gases cause a greenhouse effect has been known since the 19th century, and ascertained in the 20th century. Not much debate here either. The question now is: what will happen, and how should we go about mitigating the impacts?

(How do you know that dinosaurs really existed? That was way before we started keeping records! )
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