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Old 12-18-2009, 12:08 PM   #361
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So the premise is that higher energy prices = a better world? That fact that a fall back argument for AGW that admits that this could be based on false evidence is pretty desperate to me.
Yeah we'll all work on solar panels and wind farms. The problem is that they are too expensive. There will be net job losses. Until wind doesn't require coal plants and solar creates enough energy to be cheap enough it's still anti-growth or is just a supplement that allows C02 to grow in the atmosphere anyways.
You talking about debate is funny. I ask you a question and you post 500 words, none of which answer the question, it just goes on and on about socialism. This is your MO, you've been called out by almost everyone in this forum about it, even conservatives.

Take the part I quoted above for example. You've have been pointed out many examples of where wind is working without subsidies or coal, hell you even once posted an article that completely refuted the point you were trying to make that said wind is cheap and working in Austrailia, that one was classic . Yes there may be an initial rise in cost, but that will always be the case when making change... face it you are on the wrong side of history once again.
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Old 12-18-2009, 12:54 PM   #362
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There is no one solution. The free market isn't the solution to everything, just as environmental regulations and government spending aren't the solution to everything. But a healthy mix of all those things is good, if they're enacted in the right places.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:10 PM   #363
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The free market isn't the solution to everything,
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:08 PM   #364
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There is no one solution. The free market isn't the solution to everything, just as environmental regulations and government spending aren't the solution to everything. But a healthy mix of all those things is good, if they're enacted in the right places.
We've got no room in this discussion for common sense, pfan.
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:16 PM   #365
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'Meaningful' climate deal reached - - POLITICO.com

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The United States, China, India and South Africa have reached a "meaningful" climate change deal that sets a cap on worldwide temperature increases at no more than 2 degrees, contains no binding emissions standards — and a deal one senior administration admitted "is not sufficient" to combat long-term global warming.

The deal was struck after a day of frantic talks — and following a hastily organized multilateral meeting between President Obama, Premier Wen, Indian Prime Minister Singh and President Zuma.

"A meaningful agreement was reached," the official said. "It's not sufficient to combat the threat of climate change but it's an important first step... No country is entirely satisfied with each element, but this is a meaningful and historic step forward and a foundation from which to make further progress."
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:30 PM   #366
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Take the part I quoted above for example. You've have been pointed out many examples of where wind is working without subsidies or coal, hell you even once posted an article that completely refuted the point you were trying to make that said wind is cheap and working in Austrailia, that one was classic . Yes there may be an initial rise in cost, but that will always be the case when making change... face it you are on the wrong side of history once again.
No I posted that you could use wind if you can store the energy when there is excess wind and when there isn't hydropower (from water being pushed up hill) can come down, but environmentalists don't like the land use for that.

Secondly everybody knows that solar power can't be used everywhere. Point out Australia in some hot place as if that can be used all over the world is a dream. I'm sure wind works well in some places but are you aware of a world energy economy? I'm sure geothermal works well in Iceland but can geothermal energy be found everywhere? Do you think that renewable energy is cheap enough? Everyone on all sides of the debate know that, and the system they want to invent is to make fossil fuels more expensive and transfer that money to industries in the HOPE that these new technologies get better. I'd rather spend the money directly to research than to create a world wide cap and trade government system.

And don't pretend I don't answer questions. Either you don't understand them or your MO is plain to see. If it takes me 500 words to answer your questions then so be it. I'm not going to dumb it down to slogans like Copenhagen protestors. You ask me how economic growth works I'm going to put effort into it. Whether you like the answer or not is up to you.
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:31 PM   #367
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There is no one solution. The free market isn't the solution to everything, just as environmental regulations and government spending aren't the solution to everything. But a healthy mix of all those things is good, if they're enacted in the right places.
Well if that throws world government out the window I'm with you.
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:33 PM   #368
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as ever, Obama gets it done.
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:39 PM   #369
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No I posted that you could use wind if you can store the energy when there is excess wind and when there isn't hydropower (from water being pushed up hill) can come down, but environmentalists don't like the land use for that.
But it's working in certain parts of the world, cleaner and cheaper, and you have a hard time grasping or admitting that.

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Secondly everybody knows that solar power can't be used everywhere. Point out Australia in some hot place as if that can be used all over the world is a dream. I'm sure wind works well in some places but are you aware of a world energy economy? I'm sure geothermal works well in Iceland but can geothermal energy be found everywhere? Do you think that renewable energy is cheap enough? Everyone on all sides of the debate know that, and the system they want to invent is to make fossil fuels more expensive and transfer that money to industries in the HOPE that these new technologies get better. I'd rather spend the money directly to research than to create a world wide cap and trade government system.
No one is claiming a cure all for all parts of the world, that would be stupid. In your head you think that's what people are trying to do but reality is something completely different. And yes, there are examples of it being cheap enough.


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And don't pretend I don't answer questions. Either you don't understand them or your MO is plain to see. If it takes me 500 words to answer your questions then so be it. I'm not going to dumb it down to slogans like Copenhagen protestors. You ask me how economic growth works I'm going to put effort into it. Whether you like the answer or not is up to you.
I'm sorry but the evidence is there. You've been called out A LOT. I've asked you questions about science and I get long diatribes and youtubes about socialism and economy without one word of science, it's very telling.
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:56 PM   #370
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regulations and government spending aren't the solution to everything.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:43 PM   #371
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But it's working in certain parts of the world, cleaner and cheaper, and you have a hard time grasping or admitting that.
It's irrelevant since the goal is to reduce C02 releases by man. Experiments here and there aren't going to make a difference.

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No one is claiming a cure all for all parts of the world, that would be stupid. In your head you think that's what people are trying to do but reality is something completely different. And yes, there are examples of it being cheap enough.
Yes they are, and yes it is stupid. I'm watching David Susuki commercials where they show wind turbines and solar panels and he says "it's all there!" There are wild claims being made about green technology that don't bare out. If the purpose is to stop C02 from increasing the real choices would be to shut down coal plants and stop driving cars NOW. If we don't do that C02 will still increase. Isn't that the entire goal? Gore and Prince Charles with their warm mongering say there is a point of no return in 6 years no matter what we do. We were also told that we were definately warming since 1998 when that isn't the case. We've been told lots of lies because they just want a foot in the door. It's the typical union tactic. Ask for Mars and maybe you'll get the moon.

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I'm sorry but the evidence is there. You've been called out A LOT. I've asked you questions about science and I get long diatribes and youtubes about socialism and economy without one word of science, it's very telling.
All I can see is an agreement to disagree. There is more scientific disagreement now than before and I've posted plenty of it, though you call it "crap". In fact if it wasn't for the internet I might have believed the propaganda because I wouldn't have seen skeptical scientists. When the climategate emails came out the TV media just tried to sit on their arses to see if they can ride it out until a treaty in Copenhagen (fat chance). Now it looks like they will keep meeting like it's the Olympics. What's the next place, Mexico City 2010? Instead of a torch relay we can have a solar panel relay.
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:17 PM   #372
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It's irrelevant since the goal is to reduce C02 releases by man. Experiments here and there aren't going to make a difference.
You really don't seem to get it... I honestly think your bias has literally created a wall to not allow you to understand this.


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Yes they are, and yes it is stupid. I'm watching David Susuki commercials where they show wind turbines and solar panels and he says "it's all there!" There are wild claims being made about green technology that don't bare out. If the purpose is to stop C02 from increasing the real choices would be to shut down coal plants and stop driving cars NOW. If we don't do that C02 will still increase. Isn't that the entire goal? Gore and Prince Charles with their warm mongering say there is a point of no return in 6 years no matter what we do. We were also told that we were definately warming since 1998 when that isn't the case. We've been told lots of lies because they just want a foot in the door. It's the typical union tactic. Ask for Mars and maybe you'll get the moon.
If this part of the country can run on solar, and this part on wind, and this part on another form of energy, and we eventually get cars that run on something safer than oil then we are getting there. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand. No one is saying every part of the world can run on wind, or every part of the world can run on solar, etc... Every step you make is progress, it's not rocket science, you seem to have this all or nothing mentality. That doesn't work in the real world.

And yes, the internet is wonderful for finding junk science, but it only fools those who want to be fooled.
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:23 PM   #373
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as ever, Obama gets it done.
Not if Thom Yorke has anything to say about it:

DEAD AIR SPACE

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obama said nothing though i have not seen all the speech yet. i feel very sad for all americans i know who hold so much hope for this man. still.. i guess the day isnt over. its 3pm on friday ( though it should have finished by now). and our leaders are fully aware they are in disgrace. and fully aware that they cannot draw up an agreement and force it upon us all without us immediatley seeing the holes in it.

Thom
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ok so now there are texts/ drafts flying around all over the place. just when things feel like they are falling apart rumours that europe will commit to bigger cuts? hysteria and confusion is in the air. there has been a request for leaders to stay an extra night? what 'on earth' is going on? i pray something. i pray that something comes of this process. that all these people for all these years, all these flights to copenhagen all this hot air has some meaning. and in the midst of it all i take to bbc radio 1 and am asked 'yeah but is climate change really real' etc etc. oh for gods sake.
what am i doing here??

Thom

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and as i wrote the previous entry my battery goes dead and obama walks past with a very grim expression, everyone thought he was stroming out but no he'd just been in talks with the chinese. just now a french delegate tells me that brazil has stormed out of the talks. this is all so sad. still peace and goodwill to all men. love and understanding.
just no more business as usual ok?? this is all starting to really feel like some enormous vaguely pointless corporate expo.

Thom
Some of this is entertaining coming from a guy with a big carbon footprint. He's rich enough to fly to Copenhagen and criticize politicians who flew to Copenhagen. It just gets BETTER AND BETTER.

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And yes, the internet is wonderful for finding junk science, but it only fools those who want to be fooled.
Well if they can't reduce C02 in 6 years then we are done for or are you saying that Al Gore and Prince Charles are full of crap and the real goal is to make small steps? If that's the case you would be forced to admit the alarmism is just that, alarmism. We don't need a world government to make small steps.
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:24 PM   #374
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as ever, Obama gets it done.
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:08 PM   #375
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Well if they can't reduce C02 in 6 years then we are done for or are you saying that Al Gore and Prince Charles are full of crap and the real goal is to make small steps? If that's the case you would be forced to admit the alarmism is just that, alarmism. We don't need a world government to make small steps.
Yes because Gore and Prince Charles are experts... this is where you show your ignorance. I have said a million times, everyone knows(or should be smart enough to figure out) that people put urgency behind issues in order for things to get done, otherwise we would all be like you and wait until it's too late and our oil has run out. Every issue and political movement does this, just take a look at yourself and INDY for example. "World government", paranoia about forcing Americans to have only one child, labeling everything you don't understand as being "socialist"; you guys are the perfect example. Mirrors are wonderful things...
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