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Old 05-05-2010, 02:02 PM   #1
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Bastards

Violent far left extremists have burned down a bank in Athens resulting in the deaths of three employees.

Greece debt crisis: German outrage, strikes and markets falling | Mail Online
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:17 PM   #2
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Anarchists have a bankrupt ideology along with the literally bankrupt economics. People like this are the reason conservatives exist.
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:31 PM   #3
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Wow, sad. I just don't understand the crossing of the line with protesting. Be heard and be visible, but violence? It just negates everything you are trying to convey. Thugs.

Is this true? I wonder if any of you Europeans think this is credible/possible:

Serial numbers may hold the key if euro falls apart | Mail Online

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Serial numbers may hold the key if euro falls apart

By Simon Watkins
Last updated at 10:17 PM on 1st May 2010

* Comments (7)
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As leading German politicians last week called for Greece to be kicked out of the single currency, attention began to focus on what had previously been unthinkable - what would happen to euro notes and coins if the single currency broke apart?

Hans-Peter Friedrich, leader of the conservative Christian Social Union, said Greece should 'seriously consider leaving the eurozone'.

Chancellor Angela Merkel is still backing a multi-billion bailout for Greece, but opinion in her country is sharply divided, with many calling for Greece to be given the elbow, or more dramatically for Germany to quit the euro.It might be thought that such a plan was impossible with billions of euros in circulation across the eurozone.

But the speculation has led to wild rumours, denied by the Greek government, that Greece is already secretly printing drachma and equally uncorroborated reports that some shopkeepers in Germany are rejecting euros issued in Greece.

Behind the apparent uniformity of the euro currency it is possible to tell the country of origin. Coins are clearly marked. Notes are seemingly identical, but each serial number contains a prefix showing which country issued it.

The serial number also contains a secret clue to the country which issued the note. The clue lies in what is known as the digital root of the serial number. This can be calculated by adding together the digits, then taking the result and adding its digits together again and so on until a single digit is left.


In our example, the code reads X50446027856. The X immediately indicates that the note is German, but a second test is to add the digits. So (5+0+4+4+6+0+2+7+8+5+6) gives 47. Add these digits (4+7) gives 11. Finally add these digits (1+1) gives 2, the code number for Germany. Some countries share a code number.

But while in theory it is possible to identify which country issued the notes, many economists argue this is meaningless and could not be used to split one set of cash from another.

Europe's leaders are at least publicly determined to keep all members inside the euro and as long as they succeed all euros will continue to have the same value.

But in the event of a country falling or being pushed out of the club it will not be long before Europe's shopkeepers and consumers start looking rather more closely at their banknotes.

Land of origin: The code breaker

The 11 digit serial number on every note begins with a prefix which identifies which country issued it.

German notes begin with an X, Greek notes start with a Y, Spain's have a V, France a U, Ireland T, Portugal M and Italy S.

Belgium is Z, Cyprus G, Luxembourg 1, Malta F, Netherlands P, Austria N, Slovenia H, Slovakia E and Finland L.
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:32 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Anarchists have a bankrupt ideology along with the literally bankrupt economics. People like this are the reason conservatives exist.
Agreed.
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:49 PM   #5
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There seems to a repetitive problem in that the market gets into big booms which increase tax revenues for a short time (or a long time in our recent case) which then leads to governments increasing in size along with the boom. The problem is that when the bust comes in (because fake growth can't be sustained) then the private sector naturally sheds workers and provides new jobs in less inflated wages in the recovery but the government (due to Keynesian theories) increases in debt to not shed those workers and even tries to hire more or create projects based on new debt.

At this point Keynes points out that when the recession is over the debt must be paid back yet this requires higher taxes and/or cuts in spending which the public and the public sector workers balk at. Humans want to have their cake and eat it too. So the solution has to be some compromise in which credit is not allowed to expand too much in the first place so that when small booms and small busts occur (these are inevitable due to risk) the public doesn't go into a massive panic and large "too big to fail" companies don't fall all of a sudden and large sections of the government aren't unemployed. Certainly wage cuts and freezes are better than layoffs (in less indebted countries) since that is often all that is needed to head in the right direction.

So this is an example of a government that is "too big to fail" so Greece gets bailed out by other governments. At some point there is no more fallback except to find ways to cut spending. Investors can't keep being punished because there is no capitalism without capital.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:00 PM   #6
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Here's more of the same behaviour in the U.S.:

Thousands rally at Illinois Capitol — for a tax increase - Chicago Tribune

YouTube - Chicago teacher on tax hike: "Give up the bucks!"

Everything is Agitprop (Agitation Propaganda) so it becomes repetitive, obviously greedy and exhausting. There is no fish basket that never ends like in the Bible. Is there anyway to get this into their minds? I don't know.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:07 PM   #7
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Yay. Yet another excuse for people to vilify the "other" side.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:11 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Here's more of the same behaviour in the U.S.:
Same behaviour? I'm sorry was there a bank burning down in the background that I didn't see or something?

There are no words to describe your ignorance...
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:29 PM   #9
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Same behaviour? I'm sorry was there a bank burning down in the background that I didn't see or something?

There are no words to describe your ignorance...
You are aware of the other aspects of this topic are you? Why was it burned? Why are people angry and protesting for more money? Why do government workers want to keep higher benefits when there is a recession and budget deficits? It is the same behaviour. Greece is just farther along.

It also ties nicely into the same topic on another Greece thread:

Greece on the brink

It's ironic that anarchists are attacking a bank. After fiscally damaging the bank it can now be damaged in the conventional way. Without banks this world would be more like the middle ages.

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Yay. Yet another excuse for people to vilify the "other" side.
We are only arguing against those who believe that spoiled public sector workers should never see cuts ever. It shouldn't require a destruction of the entire public sector to balance the budget and still fund social programs. The programs are about the beneficiaries right? Or is it only about government workers and their pay? I'm sure you must agree with some of the points here irregardless of the "Bastards" thread title.
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:49 PM   #10
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We are only arguing against those who believe that spoiled public sector workers should never see cuts ever.
Based on the youtube video you've chosen to post, are you claiming that public school teachers in the US are spoiled?
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:50 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by kramwest1 View Post
Is this true? I wonder if any of you Europeans think this is credible/possible:

Serial numbers may hold the key if euro falls apart | Mail Online
No, I don't think it's credible to split up euros based on the country that issued it. The euro is the legal tender in the whole euro region. There's no difference between an euro issued in the Netherlands and one in Greece. Both can be used for payment in the eurozone. AFAIK, the national central banks themselves don't control the number of banknotes printed, the European Central Bank does.
This whole ordeal of certain (German) shops refusing euros issued in Greece sounds like some grandstanding by some morons just like when some morons suddenly didn't want to call certain things French (French fries, etc.), but named it Freedom fries. Besides, I guess very few euros issued in Greece will be in Germany. This based on the % of euros issued in Greece and the geographical distribution of euros. (BTW, just out of curiosity I took a look in my wallet. I have Dutch, French and German banknotes and Dutch, Belgian, German, French and Spanish coins)

As for Greece leaving the euro, I see that as a highly unlikely scenario (and very close to not possible). It would cost Greece a lot to change the currency. And I think their replacement currency would get into a free fall quickly. Plus, it would take quite a bit of time to arrange this, you can't do this overnight.
No, it's time for Greece to swallow the bitter pill and do the necessary reforms. From what I've heard and read the past couple of weeks, they somehow weren't willing to structure the legislation, government and culture in such a way as to curb their spending and corruption. Aparently, corruption is everywhere. Also, yearly the government misses about 20 billion euro in tax income due to widespread tax evasion. This is as much as 25% of total tax income. So if they can reduce this tax evasion, they would get a large part of their finances in order. But it will require tough measures. And from the news reports it looks like part of the population rather wants to sail to the end of the earth rather than change course.
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:56 PM   #12
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No, I don't think it's credible to split up euros based on the country that issued it. The euro is the legal tender in the whole euro region. There's no difference between an euro issued in the Netherlands and one in Greece. Both can be used for payment in the eurozone. AFAIK, the national central banks themselves don't control the number of banknotes printed, the European Central Bank does.
This whole ordeal of certain (German) shops refusing euros issued in Greece sounds like some grandstanding by some morons just like when some morons suddenly didn't want to call certain things French (French fries, etc.), but named it Freedom fries. Besides, I guess very few euros issued in Greece will be in Germany. This based on the % of euros issued in Greece and the geographical distribution of euros. (BTW, just out of curiosity I took a look in my wallet. I have Dutch, French and German banknotes and Dutch, Belgian, German, French and Spanish coins)

As for Greece leaving the euro, I see that as a highly unlikely scenario (and very close to not possible). It would cost Greece a lot to change the currency. And I think their replacement currency would get into a free fall quickly. Plus, it would take quite a bit of time to arrange this, you can't do this overnight.
No, it's time for Greece to swallow the bitter pill and do the necessary reforms. From what I've heard and read the past couple of weeks, they somehow weren't willing to structure the legislation, government and culture in such a way as to curb their spending and corruption. Aparently, corruption is everywhere. Also, yearly the government misses about 20 billion euro in tax income due to widespread tax evasion. This is as much as 25% of total tax income. So if they can reduce this tax evasion, they would get a large part of their finances in order. But it will require tough measures. And from the news reports it looks like part of the population rather wants to sail to the end of the earth rather than change course.
Thanks. That's what I was wondering. I know little about the Euro other than that it has kicked the U.S. Dollar's ass for the last several years.
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Old 05-05-2010, 05:07 PM   #13
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Your youtube link was to public school teachers. Are you saying that public school teachers in the US are spoiled?
Tax increase rally: About 15,000 teachers and union members rallied at the Illinois Capitol for a tax increase. - chicagotribune.com

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Gov. Pat Quinn is out front pushing his 33 percent increase in the income tax rate, but he's getting lonely. Many lawmakers don't want to take more money out of people's wallets as unemployment remains high in Illinois, yet groups that receive tax money said Quinn's proposed tax hike isn't big enough to help bridge a deficit that's expected to reach $13 billion if nothing is done.
Here's an example of New Jersey

2. The State of the State : Institutions Matter: Can New Jersey Reverse Course?

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Most economists agree that some level of public of spending is necessary, but too much public spending can hurt economic growth.[18] In addition to consuming a larger portion of the state’s income, government spending dedicates resources to activities that may or may not be needed in society. Because government cannot calculate economic profit and loss, it cannot ultimately know whether alternative ways of spending money create value, and thus cannot know what resources are most urgently needed in society.[19] What individuals want can only be revealed through voluntary trade. Government has no access to this information as it operates outside market exchange. As a result, government allocates resources according to political criteria, which does not often lead to rational allocation.[20]

The New Math: Union Pensionomics Levies Crushing Debt on State and Local Governments

Quote:
You pay a total of $124,000 into your pension plan and, upon retiring at age 49, you receive $3.3 million in pension payments and $500,000 in health care benefits. You receive $3.8 million in total on a $124,000 investment.

Or this:

You pay a total of $62,000 towards a pension plan and absolutely nothing for health care (medical, dental and vision coverage) over your working career. Upon retirement, you are paid $1.4 million in pension and $215,000 in health care benefits. You receive $1.6 million on a $62,000 investment.

These are real world examples from New Jersey's crushing public sector union retirement plans paid for by the state's taxpayers. Republican Governor Chris Christie is demanding drastic actions to prevent New Jersey from falling off the precipice and into full-fledged bankruptcy.

This year’s budget projected 5.1% growth in sales tax revenue and flat growth in corporate business tax revenues. In June of 2009, was there anyone in New Jersey, other than in the Department of Treasury, who actually believed any revenues would grow in 2009-2010? With spiraling unemployment heading over 10%, with a financial system in crisis and with consumers petrified to spend, only Trenton treasury officials could certify that kind of growth. In fact, sales tax revenue is not up 5%, it is down 5.5 %; and corporate business tax revenue is not flat, it is down 8%.
...For example, the state cannot continue to subsidize New Jersey transit to the extent it does. So I am cutting that subsidy. New Jersey transit will have to improve the efficiency of its operations, revisit its rich union contracts, end the patronage hiring that has typified its past

...The state cannot this year spend another $100 million contributing to a pension system that is desperately in need of reform

One state retiree, 49 years old, paid, over the course of his entire career, a total of $124,000 towards his retirement pension and health benefits. What will we pay him? $3.3 million in pension payments over his life and nearly $500,000 for health care benefits -- a total of $3.8m on a $120,000 investment. Is that fair?
A retired teacher paid $62,000 towards her pension and nothing, yes nothing, for full family medical, dental and vision coverage over her entire career. What will we pay her? $1.4 million in pension benefits and another $215,000 in health care benefit premiums over her lifetime. Is it “fair” for all of us and our children to have to pay for this excess?

The total unfunded pension and medical benefit costs are $90 billion. We would have to pay $7 billion per year to make them current. We don’t have that money—you know it and I know it. What has been done to our citizens by offering a pension system we cannot afford and health benefits that are 41% more expensive than the average Fortune 500 company’s costs is the truly unfair part of this equation.

California, another deep blue state controlled in large part by public sector unions, is also in crisis. It seems unable, or unwilling, to deal with the fiscal realities.

• California spent $75 million on cars and furniture in the midst of a massive financial crisis...

• spends $4 billion a year on educating illegal immigrants...

• spends $775 million annually for illegals' medical care...

• and spends $500 million a year on other welfare benefits for illegals...
I mean salaries can be relative but if they can't be paid for without shrinking the tax base then that's a big sign right there.
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:52 PM   #14
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It is the same behaviour.
You might want to look up the definition of "behaviour", this is not the same behaviour.

When teachers start burning things then you can make your comparisons of "behaviour".
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:57 PM   #15
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You might want to look up the definition of "behaviour", this is not the same behaviour.

When teachers start burning things then you can make your comparisons of "behaviour".
My friend the kindergarten teacher used to start "burning things" when he got home at night. But, I think you meant something different.
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