Baby refuseniks

[financeguy]

No. She wasn't given a hard time for saying things that are perfectly normal, she was rebuffed when she attacked those who don't want children as being selfish assholes while claiming great virtue for her views.

But her post was in reaction to someone saying that people who did have kids were selfish!

 

[indra]

But her post was in reaction to someone saying that people who did have kids were selfish!

But that was only in response to the blasting many of those who choose to not to have children get all the fucking time -- it wasn't a general condemnation of all people who want children.

Yeah, if you want to you can choose to see Kramwest's post as a slap to everyone who wants to have children, but to me it was clearly a retort only to those who accuse those don't want children as being selfish. It's a sort of "see what it feels like" kind of comment to only those people as a way to try to get them (the ones who tell those who don't want kids they are selfish and wrong) to understand how rude and unjust their comments are.

Perhaps she didn't read his post in context, but her replies bashed the hell out of anyone not wanting to have children whereas his "having children is being selfish" rant only comes out when someone else trots out the "you are so selfish not having children" argument.

Do you see the difference?

 

[kramwest1]

But that was only in response to the blasting many of those who choose to not to have children get all the fucking time -- it wasn't a general condemnation of all people who want children.

Yeah, if you want to you can choose to see Kramwest's post as a slap to everyone who wants to have children, but to me it was clearly a retort only to those who accuse those don't want children as being selfish. It's a sort of "see what it feels like" kind of comment to only those people as a way to try to get them (the ones who tell those who don't want kids they are selfish and wrong) to understand how rude and unjust their comments are.

Perhaps she didn't read his post in context, but her replies bashed the hell out of anyone not wanting to have children whereas his "having children is being selfish" rant only comes out when someone else trots out the "you are so selfish not having children" argument.

Do you see the difference?

Thank you.

Yes. That was the intent of my first post.

But, it was also an clinical and empirical statement that selfishness (acting for one's own interest) was exemplified by making a little clone of yourself, especially when that person states/believes that society would be better if there were more people like me in it.

Hell, I'll take it to the next level and say that that kind of reasoning is a little Master Race-ist (especially when there is a religious element to having lots of kids).

Believing that you are better than the majority of people (or all people) and then acting on it, well, to me, seems selfish.

Parents generally wouldn't want to admit this, but I've heard plenty of them say this or something very close to it. (That, and that they are afraid of being alone when they get older.)

Now I'm NOT saying that that is NOT a reason to have kids, nor that it is every parents motive. But, own up to it, understand that it is a selfish motive, and stop calling me selfish for NOT needing to pass on my DNA, for NOT believing that society needs more of me in it, for NOT being concerned about passing on my family name and for NOT being scared about growing old alone.


Mark

 

[AnnRKeyintheUSA]

But her post was in reaction to someone saying that people who did have kids were selfish!

Thank you! I fail to see where I ever said what they claimed I was saying, or where they got that from my posts. If anyone would read my posts I say clearly that no one should call anyone selfish! Yes I did take up for parents because how can they be 'selfish' when they give most of their time and money to their kids, but I never said anyone not having them was selfish. My 'views' say if people don't want them DO NOT have them because they'd resent them and be bad parents anyway, but don't call people who want kids selfish because it doesn't fit. When I read Yolland's post I was thinking, that's the same basic point I was trying to make and no one attacked him but then I saw he was a mod. If someone else had written that post I wonder what would have happened. Probably the same 'cry me a fucken river you martyr' speech I got. It's stupid to call me a 'martyr' because I don't even have any kids! On calling Kramwest an asshole, I edited that remark out less than ten seconds after I wrote it and he grabbed it and posted it. That alone makes him a classless asshole kids or no kids.

 

[melon]

I tend to have this fairly academic debate in my head as to whether I would want children or not, but I ultimately remember that I will probably never be able to afford them anyway. As such, I pretty much think that the choice has been made for me.

 

[MadelynIris]

Reminds me of this funny commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fitxofd7kOA&feature=player_embedded

 

[AliEnvy]

but I ultimately remember that I will probably never be able to afford them anyway. As such, I pretty much think that the choice has been made for me.

I didn't think it would take this far into the thread for this particular acknowledgement.

So much choice, yet in some ways, no choice.

 

[martha]

When I read Yolland's post I was thinking, that's the same basic point I was trying to make and no one attacked him but then I saw he was a mod.

Yolland being a mod is not the reason no one said anything. Her post and yours were miles apart in intent and content.

 

[corianderstem]

That alone makes him a classless asshole kids or no kids.

No. You called him a name, and he responded to it. Yeah, you edited it, and that's not a bad thing, but you put it out there in the first place and he happened to catch it before you edited.

You post something, it's fair game for quoting, and if you edit the original later, it's not the responsibility of those quoting you to edit their own posts.

So no, he's not an asshole for responding to the name calling.

 

[kramwest1]

I just grabbed the quote because anyone that really knows me knows how ridiculous that is.

I'll take "classless" though, that works on a few levels of interpretation.


Mark

 

[Diemen]

On calling Kramwest an asshole, I edited that remark out less than ten seconds after I wrote it and he grabbed it and posted it. That alone makes him a classless asshole kids or no kids.

Why edit something out that you're just going to call someone again?

You're the only one stooping to name calling here. Relax.

 

[kramwest1]

I guess I'm still a little puzzled why selfishness is interpreted as simply time and money.

I understand the value of parents' time to a child. It is probably true that the more given by the parents, the better (please explain daycare centers to me though).

Money in raising a child? Sure it costs money, but it seems a poor level on which to argue parents' abilities. Don't we all know low income people who have raised good kids, and rich folks who have raised kids poorly? Sure.

No, skip the selfishness as a time and money argument. I'm talking about selfishness as a "self" thing. An ego thing.

You can say people who are not interested in having kids or spending time with kids are potentially selfish in regards to kids.
But people who become parents (which from my experience are a lot of them) to make a genetic descendant of themselves because that will make society better are by definition, selfish. SELF-ish.


Mark
(shellfish)

 

[martha]

Or those that spend $20,000 to have their own child rather than adopt.

 

[yolland]

^ Actually, the average adoption cost (in the US) is around $25,000, whereas the average combined cost of pregnancy and childbirth (again, in the US) is around $8000. Adopting an older child through the foster care system (public agency adoption) is relatively quite inexpensive, but that's not the option most prospective adoptive parents here choose. And all this is setting aside the non-financial complexities.

 

[Maoilbheannacht]

I do think that a person who hates/doesn't want kids AND hates/doesn't want pets is probably not a very nice person. At least this has been my experience.

So what do you think about Adam Clayton? Do you think he is a nice person?

 

[martha]

^ Actually, the average adoption cost (in the US) is around $25,000, whereas the average combined cost of pregnancy and childbirth (again, in the US) is around $8000. Adopting an older child through the foster care system (public agency adoption) is relatively quite inexpensive, but that's not the option most prospective adoptive parents here choose. And all this is setting aside the non-financial complexities.

No, she spent $20,000 on in vitro.

 

[indra]

No, she spent $20,000 on in vitro.

Still less expensive than the average adoption though.

 

[yolland]

OK...sorry, I thought you were making a generalized statement about biological parents as opposed to adoptive parents, now I gather you're actually talking about a specific individual you know. Seems to me that her reasons are her business, though?

 

[No spoken words]

This thread confuses me, but, then again, I'm easily flummoxed.

My take on people that want to have kids:

That's great, I hope you make for a great parent and do not extend yourself too far financially if you start having myriad children.

My take on people that do not want to have kids:

That's great, I hope you lead a rich life and if you are/do get married, I hope you're not too bombarded with "when are you guys having a baby???' queries.

I mean, again, this is a simple take on things, but, it is my take on it.

Bottom line? I don't give a fuck if people want to have kids or not. I don't know why I would or should, let alone why I'd term someone from either camp as being "selfish".

And, in case anyone gives more of a fuck than I do, yes, I'd like to have children one day.

 

[indra]

Seems to me that her reasons are her business, though?

This should always be the case. Really no one should give a crap whether or not anyone else wants or doesn't want children, or how they want to have them (unless it's illegal ), or how much they have to pay, or even why they want children (again, unless the why is illegal). Generally speaking though none of it should be any one else's business at all. Therefore I feel any nosy questions about when, why, why not, how, how much, what were you thinking??!!, etc. regarding children, should always be met with silence and one's best and most withering death stare.

 

[martha]

OK...sorry, I thought you were making a generalized statement about biological parents as opposed to adoptive parents, now I gather you're actually talking about a specific individual you know. Seems to me that her reasons are her business, though?

Absolutely her own business. I had other issues with the way she conducted the rest of her life, but I never took it upon myself to offer her my uninvited opinions about any of it.

Not being maternal at all, not only have I never understood the desire to procreate, I really don't get the whole in vitro, my-personal-baby-at-all-costs mindset. But again, if people want to do it, fine.

And I certainly wouldn't make any laws against it just because I think it's a little on the immoral side.

 

[kafrun]

On calling Kramwest an asshole, I edited that remark out less than ten seconds after I wrote it and he grabbed it and posted it. That alone makes him a classless asshole kids or no kids.

I think Cori responded well to this earlier, but I'd like to add that you clearly haven't had much interaction with him if this is what you think. He's far from it, based on my experience

 

[yolland]

Not being maternal at all, not only have I never understood the desire to procreate, I really don't get the whole in vitro, my-personal-baby-at-all-costs mindset. But again, if people want to do it, fine.

And I certainly wouldn't make any laws against it just because I think it's a little on the immoral side.

Eh...well, I'm inclined to doubt we would've considered something like IVF had we been unable to conceive; I think at that point we'd probably have opted to 'take it as a sign' that adoption was the way to go for us and tried for that instead. But I don't see why it's an immoral choice to make. I don't think most people who wind up having biological children ever seriously consider adoption as an alternative but, for those who do consider it, I doubt that existential judgments as to their hypothetical adopted child's "worthiness" of a loving home compared to their hypothetical biological child's actually enter into it. For many people there's something deeply moving and wondrous about partaking in the process by which all life on earth has furthered itself all these millions of years, in a way which has nothing to do with any pretense at qualitative comparisons of your own hypothetical offspring to someone else's. (And of course it'd be just that, pretense, because what we can't know about how our children, biological or adopted, will 'turn out' dwarfs what we can know, and we all recognize this reality when it comes down to it.) I just don't think it's reasonable to suggest that someone who chooses to have biological children, including by IVF, is somehow 'wronging' all the adoptable children out there, any more than it would be to suggest the same of people who choose never to become parents at all.



Like meegannie and NSW, I'm really flummoxed by the whole idea that whether someone has children (and if s/he does, how, unless we're talking rape or abduction) says much of anything about his or her moral character, 'selfishness,' etc. How you treat the people in your life, children and otherwise--that's where you reveal those kinds of things.

 

[Laura M]

Maybe it's something that I'll think about in a few years time but right now I can't imagine having children. That seems to surprise some people. Some folk feel that I should know I definitely want them.

I once made the mistake of telling a work colleague that and she tried to convince me that we HAVE to have children because "they're so cute, how could you not definitely want some?!" Sure, kids can be cute but that doesn't seem like a reason to have one.

Now my fiance's siblings all have children, his Mum has told him he'll be a Dad soon or his work friends ask him when he wants to have children now because all his siblings have babies so that probably makes him feel like he wants some, exactly the same type of thing my work colleague says. I guess when people have children of their own, they can't imagine people not having/choosing to have any because it's what their life now revolves around.

 

[meegannie]

I don't think adoption vs. IVF is an easy choice by any means, and I doubt it's one that most people make without careful consideration. I know that here in the UK, the domestic adoption process for an older child takes an average of 3-5 years, and can take 7-10 years for a baby. The criteria to be considered for the adoption are quite strict, and things like a history of depression or being over 35 can adversely affect an application (or disqualify the applicant if the application is to adopt an infant). There is also a policy of matching the race/ethnicity of a child to prospective adoptive families, which can prolong the wait for a match. All adoptions are open adoptions, and the birth family still maintains contact in many cases, which many people who would otherwise like to adopt may not be comfortable with. Obviously, this creates a situation where there are people for whom adoption may not be a possibility or those are just not suited to adoption, but who aren't necessarily unsuited to being parents.

With IVF, each cycle only has a success rate of approximately 30% (if NHS funding can be secured, it only covers 1-3 cycles, so many people will have to pay for private treatment). Then there are considerations like travel expenses, time off work, side effects of fertility drugs, etc., in addition to larger ethical concerns like what to do with any remaining embryos (and if the embryos are donated there is no anonymity, so embryo donors will have to consider the possibilty of any children resulting from those embryos turning up at their door in eighteen years!).

 

[financeguy]

And I certainly wouldn't make any laws against it just because I think it's a little on the immoral side.

 

[BEAL]

I can't make any relationship work (regardless of who's fault...), so why would I even consider having children?

Not having kids has enabled me to do things I probably would have struggled to do. I've travelled to Europe 3 times, been to Hawaii, an Alaskan Cruise....and overall been able to make sure my life is financially secure.

Do I think about having kids? Sure, who doesn't? Do I think I'd be a good parent, I don't know. I am a bit selfish, and while it's debatable those feelings/attitudes would change, I just don't see it being a good move.

 

[redhotswami]

I think what frustrates me the most about my decision to not have children is when people say "Oh, you'll change your mind." Or other dismissive statements that indicate they aren't taking me seriously. I mean, sure, I may be young, but I'm pretty sure that I know myself far better than anyone else does. So why do people who like/have kids think that everyone else wants them? I also can't stand it when someone just throws one of those spawn things in my face, and assumes I want to gush all over it just because I'm a woman. No, I don't want to touch the stinky gross slobbering screaming thing! Why would I? I don't have any sort of maternal instinct, and I definitely don't have a desire to hold/have a baby.

Which, I guess is odd, because I do like to help people...but it's just babies I can't handle, for whatever reason.

Now, I don't want to have kids. Will I ever have kids? Who knows. After all, my both my brother and I were conceived when my mom was on BC.

I don't think the decision to have or not have kids is selfish. I think trying to impose one's views on another is.

 

[Liesje]

I have the opposite problem - because I don't have kids yet people assume I'm some kind of baby-hater and/or assume that I'm some freak dog person that treats my dogs like children. I never said I didn't want kids, I just don't want them now. And no, my dogs are *not* a replacement for children. A dog is a dog and a child is a child. I love my dogs and spend a lot of time and money on them but would I throw my dog in front of a bus if it saved a child? Yes, any day of the week.

 

[martha]

But I don't see why it's an immoral choice to make.

I don't know; I think that spending that much money just to make a baby because you can't make one the regular way, when there are already 6 billion people on the planet, many of them starving babies, is just a little weird.

And I know that I do stuff that makes people go , so that's why in reality, I think that if that's how they want to spend their money, then have at it.