Baby refuseniks

[martha]

That must be it.

 

[Irvine511]

i have no idea if i want kids or not. the idea fascinates me, but the magazine article makes several very salient points -- and i guess the question becomes, "can you live happily without having kids?" and if the answer is no, which i assume it is for many people, because i think most people do want to have kids, then you should have kids.

i dunno. i think it's wonderful that people have the option now, and i look forward to an earth that might be a little bit less crowded, at least in Western Europe, Japan, and the U.S. sure, we'll have to raise the retirement age, but whatever.

 

[financeguy]

I thinking of having kids just to piss off the liberal left.

 

[BVS]

I thinking of having kids just to piss off the liberal left.

See this is why I said what I did in my post, to preempt this...

 

[financeguy]

Well two things I've learned in FYM are that true conservatives save, save, save and never live out of their means so if they can't afford the best education they won't have kids, and liberals hate families..

I agree that this is the case. I think you have forgotten, however, that there is another class of people, even worse than liberals (a liberal might have terrible political ideas, but in general they won't stab you or rob your home to steal to pay for their drugs) - the underclass, who are notoriously fecund, and desire to perpetuate their appalling values of welfarism, thievery and general scumbaggery to the next generation. That's another reason why I feel almost a responsibility to have kids - to counteract this and help perpetuate the bourgeois middle class, which ultimately all of us on FYM are part of. You liberals might deny it, but ultimately the most important thing is to perpetuate the values of civil society, which are exclusively middle and respectable working class. All healthy civil societies rest on the bedrock of stable middle and working class values. The underclass and the oligarchy upper class are against us. It's time to take them on.

 

[BVS]

Wow, not only did you miss my glaringly obvious sarcasm, but you even were able to take it a step further and stereotype poor people.

Way to go you upstanding citizen.

Wow, people are really showing their true colors this week.

 

[yolland]

It might be fun to have a kid that I could kick around
A little me to fill up with my thoughts
A little me or he or she to fill up with my dreams
A way of saying life is not a loss

I'd keep the tyke away from school and tutor him myself
Keep him from the poison of the crowd
But then again pristine isolation might not be the best idea
It's not good trying to immortalize yourself

Beginning of a great adventure
Beginning of a great adventure

Why stop at one, I might have ten, a regular TV brood
I'd breed a little liberal army in the woods
Just like these redneck lunatics I see at the local bar
With their tribe of mutant inbred piglets with cloven hooves

I'd teach 'em how to plant a bomb, start a fire, play guitar
And if they catch a hunter, shoot him in the nuts
I'd try to be as progressive as I could possibly be
As long as I don't have to try too much

Beginning of a great adventure
Beginning of a great adventure

Susie, Jesús, Bogart, Sam, Leslie, Jill and Jeff
Rita, Winny, Andy, Fran and Jet
Boris, Bono, Lucy, Ethel, Bunny, Reg and Tom
That's a lot of names to try not to forget

Carrie, Marlon, Mo and Steve, LaRue and Jerry Lee
Eggplant Rufus, Dummy Star and the Glob
I'd need a damn computer to keep track of all these names
I hope this baby thing don't go too far

I hope it's true what my wife said to me
I hope it's true what my wife said to me, hey
I hope it's true what my wife said to me
She says, baby, its the beginning of a great adventure
Babe, beginning of a great adventure

It might be fun to have a kid that I could kick around
Create in my own image like a god
I'd raise my own pallbearers to carry me to the grave
And keep me company when I'm a wizened toothless clod

Some gibbering old fool sitting all alone drooling on his shirt
Some senile old fart playing in the dirt
It might be fun to have a kid I could pass something on to
Something better than rage, pain, anger and hurt

I hope it's true what my wife said to me
I hope it's true what my wife said to me
I hope it's true what my wife said to me
She says, Lou, it's the beginning of a great adventure
Lou, beginning of a great adventure

 

[anitram]

That's another reason why I feel almost a responsibility to have kids - to counteract this and help perpetuate the bourgeois middle class, which ultimately all of us on FYM are part of.

Excuse me, but some of us are working hard to marry up, you know!!

 

[financeguy]

Excuse me, but some of us are working hard to marry up, you know!!

Yes and then you probably won't talk to us any more, you will be part of the international glitterati and even if you wanted to talk to us you will be too busy at your fancy balls and doing up the house in the Hamptons and so forth.

 

[Diemen]

[humor] [/humor]

Wow, not only did you miss my glaringly obvious sarcasm, but you even were able to take it a step further and stereotype poor people.

Way to go you upstanding citizen.

Wow, people are really showing their true colors this week.

Indeed.

 

[martha]

Anybody ever see Idiocracy?

Idiocracy (2006) - Synopsis

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

I will be the first to admit I am too selfish with my life to have a child right now. There are too many things I want to do and I know if I have a kid, I would have to put all of that on hold. I don't know if being a mom will ever be in my future, but I do know I have a motherly instinct.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Financeguy, the middle class virtues are not without their uglier side. Remember, as the 'meat' in the sandwich between the upper crust and the bottom of the heap, they used to be very susceptible to fascist appeals.

Nice that you're including the respectable working class in the circle at least. It reminds me of how conservative Christian types tend to sort of/kind of include Catholics nowadays, on the principle that at least they aren't godless secularists. Time was when Catholic v Proddy was the main game.

See now, that's progress!

 

[anitram]

Financeguy, the middle class virtues are not without their uglier side. Remember, as the 'meat' in the sandwich between the upper crust and the bottom of the heap, they used to be very susceptible to fascist appeals.

It's the static nature of the middle class that is responsible for a lot of bad things in this world, IMO. So long as they have their house in the 'burbs, two cars out front, a big plasma screen TV to watch football on and cheap shit to buy at Walmart, they are perfectly satisfied to maintain the status quo.

^

I dunno if I managed to generalize as well as financeguy does it...

 

[Liesje]

I will be the first to admit I am too selfish with my life to have a child right now. There are too many things I want to do and I know if I have a kid, I would have to put all of that on hold.

I don't think that's any more "selfish" than the people I know who insist on having their own baby because they simply must have their own baby. I know of someone who could have died this week because she insisted on carrying a baby that they knew based on US would die anyway and then wanted to deliver it naturally when it did die even though she was losing so much blood and it could have taken days to deliver (luckily she finally gave in and got D&E but maybe can never have kids again due to the damage).

 

[kramwest1]

Oh, I hate to dip my toe into this, but...

My wife and I are not planning on having kids, although we have reserved the option to adopt someday (this may include foster kids, I don't know).

So by its very definition, is there anything MORE selfish than having kids?
The two answers I consistently get from people when pushed on why they truly had/want kids are:

a. They want to see/love what the blend of their and their partners genes are like.

b. They don't want to be alone when they get old.

Selfish anyone? You want a little half-clone of yourself, or you're scared of being alone?

I'm not a radical anti-kid person, but my hackles go up when anyone starts throwing around the "you're selfish because you don't want kids argument."


Mark

 

[Liesje]

^ exactly!

(and I do want kids, just don't really care whether they come out of my uterus)

 

[maycocksean]

There's something in human nature that wants others to validate our choices by choosing the same thing. I think that's what motivates a lot of the horror on hearing that someone doesn't want to have children.

I do think it's true that most people change their mind about not having children as they get older, but that's certainly not everyone, as Martha has pointed out.

Neither my wife or I are "baby people." We waited for 10 years to start trying, and now that we have our son Elijah, while we love him more than life itself, we're still not "baby people" in the sense that we have only a mild interest in other people's babies.

 

[martha]

See, I love other people's babies!

 

[AnnRKeyintheUSA]

My mom has stooped to working on my little brother and praying that he has illegitimate children!

I would like to adopt kids. Not sure if that will happen for the first one since I honestly don't think we can afford it even with help from Phil's parents, but eventually I want to. I don't have this maternal urge to be pregnant and there's enough babies already.

Don't feel obligated to take in someone else's kids. You have enough on your hands with the animals you adopt, that's doing a good thing, and they need homes too. If you adopted a kid the agency would probably want you to get rid of the German Shepards because they'd think they might bite. If you don't want one of your own just stick to the homeless pets.

 

[AnnRKeyintheUSA]

Oh, I hate to dip my toe into this, but...

My wife and I are not planning on having kids, although we have reserved the option to adopt someday (this may include foster kids, I don't know).

So by its very definition, is there anything MORE selfish than having kids?
The two answers I consistently get from people when pushed on why they truly had/want kids are:

a. They want to see/love what the blend of their and their partners genes are like.

b. They don't want to be alone when they get old.

Selfish anyone? You want a little half-clone of yourself, or you're scared of being alone?

I'm not a radical anti-kid person, but my hackles go up when anyone starts throwing around the "you're selfish because you don't want kids argument."


Mark

No, it's not selfish to want kids, those are all very normal reasons for wanting a child. That is why most people have them (and you might add that the grandparents want descendants and to carry on the 'family name' as another reason) and always have. If you don't want kids fine, but don't attack those who feel that way. Actually the real 'selfish' people are the ones who have decided they don't want to share their time, money and lives with a baby! But that's okay, because if they don't want one it's better not to have one than to have one anyway and then resent it for taking your time and money. But still don't call those who have the kids 'selfish' because they are going to sacrifice, give and share a hell of a lot more than those who don't have any and are only concerned for themselves. Most people who have a family essentially give up their lives for their children, and while that may not be something you are willing to do and that is your right, it is far, far from "selfish". The people who don't want kids because they don't want to have to share their time and money and be held back from what they want to do really are selfish, but that is not something that anyone should bash them for either. They wouldn't make good parents anyway, and we have enough screwed up kids in the world, so they shouldn't have them and no one should pressure them. So basically no one should bash anyone for their personal reasons to want/not want a child. Or, everyone's selfish, but it's okay!

But those of you who consider yourself 'smart' or 'educated' remember this- you're not having kids to pass on your values to while rednecks are having lots of them so in time you're going to be outnumbered and the rednecks shall inherit the earth! Yee haw!

 

[Liesje]

Don't feel obligated to take in someone else's kids. You have enough on your hands with the animals you adopt, that's doing a good thing, and they need homes too. If you adopted a kid the agency would probably want you to get rid of the German Shepards because they'd think they might bite. If you don't want one of your own just stick to the homeless pets.

Are you kidding me? How old are you? Sorry, don't really know where to begin with this post....

First of all, I don't adopt ANYTHING out of guilt or "feeling sorry", I do it because I want it (in the case of an animal) or I want it and don't feel the need to put my own body through torture to get it (in the case of a child). Secondly, my dogs are not "homeless pets". Not that it should matter, but since you brought it up, I paid more for the male I am working now than what I will put down on our first home. Third, if you have not adopted a child and/or work dogs, how are you so familiar with an agency's protocol? My mom worked for an adoption agency for years and years and pretty much every family we are friends with or knew growing up had at least one adopted child so I am quite familiar with how things work.

Off-topic: ALL dogs bite. Mine simply bite what I say, when I say it and nothing else.

 

[kramwest1]

No, it's not selfish to want kids, those are all very normal reasons for wanting a child. That is why most people have them (and you might add that the grandparents want descendants and to carry on the 'family name' as another reason) and always have. If you don't want kids fine, but don't attack those who feel that way. Actually the real 'selfish' people are the ones who have decided they don't want to share their time, money and lives with a baby! But that's okay, because if they don't want one it's better not to have one than to have one anyway and then resent it for taking your time and money. But still don't call those who have the kids 'selfish' because they are going to sacrifice, give and share a hell of a lot more than those who don't have any and are only concerned for themselves. Most people who have a family essentially give up their lives for their children, and while that may not be something you are willing to do and that is your right, it is far, far from "selfish". The people who don't want kids because they don't want to have to share their time and money and be held back from what they want to do really are selfish, but that is not something that anyone should bash them for either. They wouldn't make good parents anyway, and we have enough screwed up kids in the world, so they shouldn't have them and no one should pressure them. So basically no one should bash anyone for their personal reasons to want/not want a child.

But those of you who consider yourself 'smart' or 'educated' remember this- you're not having kids to pass on your values to while rednecks are having lots of them so in time you're going to be outnumbered and the rednecks shall inherit the earth! Yee haw!

I'm sorry, exactly who was I attacking?

I was countering the "Selfish" argument.

And wanting to pass on a family name? Selfish.

Thinking that your genes and smarts are SO MUCH BETTER than the rednecks? Selfish.

AND DO NOT ASSUME THAT I DO NOT SACRIFICE OR SPEND MONEY AND TIME ON CHILDREN SIMPLY BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE ANY OF MY OWN!
YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT MY INVOLVEMENT WITH CHILDREN IS!


Mark

 

[AnnRKeyintheUSA]

Well obviously you don't want any in your home and taking up your time and impeding your personal life. Like I said you can use that 'selfish' argument on anyone, but it doesn't matter and no one should bash anyone else. I am not bashing you I am only bashing that you call parents 'selfish' when they give up far more than you ever will. Wanting and having kids is very normal, and has been going on for thousands of years. None of us would be here if someone wasn't 'selfish' (in your view) at some point.

But why is it 'selfish' to want a kid to carry on the family name, as long as you really want the kid anyway and are going to love and care for it all its life? If somebody had one for that reason and then ignored and abused it that would be different, but no matter what the reason for having a kid, it's okay as long as the kid is properly cared for. Me, I admit I want kids to have descendants, so that part of me will go on when I'm gone. This also means I'm going to give up most of my paychecks and not get to go and do and buy the things I want to because I'm going to have to devote my time and money to raising them. So, this is NOT selfish. Sorry.

Like I said to Lies having animals around is another way to love and give of yourself and yes I do consider those who adopt pets and keep them for their whole lives to be just as devoted as parents to human kids and I respect them very much. I do think that a person who hates/doesn't want kids AND hates/doesn't want pets is probably not a very nice person. At least this has been my experience.

 

[kramwest1]

I'm glad you're not having kids, you'd be an asshole of a Dad.

Nice. (way to try to edit your post quickly)

I'll tell my nephews that when they come to live with me.

 

[Liesje]

But why is it 'selfish' to want a kid to carry on the family name, as long as you really want the kid anyway and are going to love and care for it all its life?

And why it it selfish NOT to care about the family name?

That's all Kramwest is doing....you can spin it both ways....

 

[AnnRKeyintheUSA]

.

 

[AnnRKeyintheUSA]

you can spin it both ways....

That is exactly what I was doing, though his version was much more hate filled. I don't care, really, I just don't like to see anyone bashed for loving. And NO ONE who spends as much money as parents do on their kids are selfish, sorry. It's like calling suicide bombers 'cowards.' Sure takes a lot of guts to know you're going to die detonate the bomb anyway. I don't like or respect them or what they did, but don't call them 'cowards.' I really, really do think it's stupid of anyone to call anyone 'selfish' for wanting or not wanting a kid.

 

[martha]

that is exactly what i was doing, though his version was much more hate filled. I don't care, really, i just don't like to see anyone bashed for loving. And no one who spends as much money as parents do on their kids are selfish, sorry. It's like calling suicide bombers 'cowards.' sure takes a lot of guts to know you're going to die detonate the bomb anyway. I don't like or respect them or what they did, but don't call them 'cowards.'

W
T
F
?


fcl

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

That is exactly what I was doing, though his version was much more hate filled. I don't care, really, I just don't like to see anyone bashed for loving. And NO ONE who spends as much money as parents do on their kids are selfish, sorry. It's like calling suicide bombers 'cowards.' Sure takes a lot of guts to know you're going to die detonate the bomb anyway. I don't like or respect them or what they did, but don't call them 'cowards.'

oh, cry me a fucking river, you may not think you are selfish but you sure as hell are acting like a martyr.