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Old 08-01-2009, 09:15 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by indra View Post
No. She wasn't given a hard time for saying things that are perfectly normal, she was rebuffed when she attacked those who don't want children as being selfish assholes while claiming great virtue for her views.
But her post was in reaction to someone saying that people who did have kids were selfish!
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Old 08-01-2009, 10:28 PM   #92
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But her post was in reaction to someone saying that people who did have kids were selfish!
But that was only in response to the blasting many of those who choose to not to have children get all the fucking time -- it wasn't a general condemnation of all people who want children.

Yeah, if you want to you can choose to see Kramwest's post as a slap to everyone who wants to have children, but to me it was clearly a retort only to those who accuse those don't want children as being selfish. It's a sort of "see what it feels like" kind of comment to only those people as a way to try to get them (the ones who tell those who don't want kids they are selfish and wrong) to understand how rude and unjust their comments are.

Perhaps she didn't read his post in context, but her replies bashed the hell out of anyone not wanting to have children whereas his "having children is being selfish" rant only comes out when someone else trots out the "you are so selfish not having children" argument.

Do you see the difference?
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:25 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by indra View Post
But that was only in response to the blasting many of those who choose to not to have children get all the fucking time -- it wasn't a general condemnation of all people who want children.

Yeah, if you want to you can choose to see Kramwest's post as a slap to everyone who wants to have children, but to me it was clearly a retort only to those who accuse those don't want children as being selfish. It's a sort of "see what it feels like" kind of comment to only those people as a way to try to get them (the ones who tell those who don't want kids they are selfish and wrong) to understand how rude and unjust their comments are.

Perhaps she didn't read his post in context, but her replies bashed the hell out of anyone not wanting to have children whereas his "having children is being selfish" rant only comes out when someone else trots out the "you are so selfish not having children" argument.

Do you see the difference?
Thank you.

Yes. That was the intent of my first post.

But, it was also an clinical and empirical statement that selfishness (acting for one's own interest) was exemplified by making a little clone of yourself, especially when that person states/believes that society would be better if there were more people like me in it.

Hell, I'll take it to the next level and say that that kind of reasoning is a little Master Race-ist (especially when there is a religious element to having lots of kids).

Believing that you are better than the majority of people (or all people) and then acting on it, well, to me, seems selfish.

Parents generally wouldn't want to admit this, but I've heard plenty of them say this or something very close to it. (That, and that they are afraid of being alone when they get older.)

Now I'm NOT saying that that is NOT a reason to have kids, nor that it is every parents motive. But, own up to it, understand that it is a selfish motive, and stop calling me selfish for NOT needing to pass on my DNA, for NOT believing that society needs more of me in it, for NOT being concerned about passing on my family name and for NOT being scared about growing old alone.


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Old 08-02-2009, 09:44 AM   #94
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But her post was in reaction to someone saying that people who did have kids were selfish!
Thank you! I fail to see where I ever said what they claimed I was saying, or where they got that from my posts. If anyone would read my posts I say clearly that no one should call anyone selfish! Yes I did take up for parents because how can they be 'selfish' when they give most of their time and money to their kids, but I never said anyone not having them was selfish. My 'views' say if people don't want them DO NOT have them because they'd resent them and be bad parents anyway, but don't call people who want kids selfish because it doesn't fit. When I read Yolland's post I was thinking, that's the same basic point I was trying to make and no one attacked him but then I saw he was a mod. If someone else had written that post I wonder what would have happened. Probably the same 'cry me a fucken river you martyr' speech I got. It's stupid to call me a 'martyr' because I don't even have any kids! On calling Kramwest an asshole, I edited that remark out less than ten seconds after I wrote it and he grabbed it and posted it. That alone makes him a classless asshole kids or no kids.
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Old 08-02-2009, 11:53 AM   #95
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I tend to have this fairly academic debate in my head as to whether I would want children or not, but I ultimately remember that I will probably never be able to afford them anyway. As such, I pretty much think that the choice has been made for me.
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:01 PM   #96
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Reminds me of this funny commercial:

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Old 08-02-2009, 12:10 PM   #97
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but I ultimately remember that I will probably never be able to afford them anyway. As such, I pretty much think that the choice has been made for me.
I didn't think it would take this far into the thread for this particular acknowledgement.

So much choice, yet in some ways, no choice.
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:40 PM   #98
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When I read Yolland's post I was thinking, that's the same basic point I was trying to make and no one attacked him but then I saw he was a mod.
Yolland being a mod is not the reason no one said anything. Her post and yours were miles apart in intent and content.
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:45 PM   #99
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That alone makes him a classless asshole kids or no kids.
No. You called him a name, and he responded to it. Yeah, you edited it, and that's not a bad thing, but you put it out there in the first place and he happened to catch it before you edited.

You post something, it's fair game for quoting, and if you edit the original later, it's not the responsibility of those quoting you to edit their own posts.

So no, he's not an asshole for responding to the name calling.

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Old 08-02-2009, 02:58 PM   #100
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I just grabbed the quote because anyone that really knows me knows how ridiculous that is.

I'll take "classless" though, that works on a few levels of interpretation.


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Old 08-02-2009, 03:08 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by AnnRKeyintheUSA View Post
On calling Kramwest an asshole, I edited that remark out less than ten seconds after I wrote it and he grabbed it and posted it. That alone makes him a classless asshole kids or no kids.
Why edit something out that you're just going to call someone again?

You're the only one stooping to name calling here. Relax.
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:41 PM   #102
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I guess I'm still a little puzzled why selfishness is interpreted as simply time and money.

I understand the value of parents' time to a child. It is probably true that the more given by the parents, the better (please explain daycare centers to me though).

Money in raising a child? Sure it costs money, but it seems a poor level on which to argue parents' abilities. Don't we all know low income people who have raised good kids, and rich folks who have raised kids poorly? Sure.

No, skip the selfishness as a time and money argument. I'm talking about selfishness as a "self" thing. An ego thing.

You can say people who are not interested in having kids or spending time with kids are potentially selfish in regards to kids.
But people who become parents (which from my experience are a lot of them) to make a genetic descendant of themselves because that will make society better are by definition, selfish. SELF-ish.


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Old 08-02-2009, 04:36 PM   #103
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Or those that spend $20,000 to have their own child rather than adopt.
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:55 PM   #104
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^ Actually, the average adoption cost (in the US) is around $25,000, whereas the average combined cost of pregnancy and childbirth (again, in the US) is around $8000. Adopting an older child through the foster care system (public agency adoption) is relatively quite inexpensive, but that's not the option most prospective adoptive parents here choose. And all this is setting aside the non-financial complexities.
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:05 PM   #105
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I do think that a person who hates/doesn't want kids AND hates/doesn't want pets is probably not a very nice person. At least this has been my experience.
So what do you think about Adam Clayton? Do you think he is a nice person?
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