Baby refuseniks

[Liesje]

his version was much more hate filled.

 

[Liesje]

I do think that a person who hates/doesn't want kids AND hates/doesn't want pets is probably not a very nice person. At least this has been my experience.

I like how "hates" and "doesn't want" are the same thing. And by like I mean I find it ridiculous.

I know that Martha doesn't want kids b/c she has said so before but I also know she is a teacher. What a kid-hater she must be! I guess I'll err on the side of a "kid hater" as opposed to someone who doesn't know what the eff they're talking about...

 

[meegannie]

I will never understand how someone can determine whether someone else is selfish based solely on whether or not they want to have children (or how many they want or how they want to have them).

 

[bigjohn2441]

i like the process of making babies, but dont like the babies themselves.

 

[Irvine511]

what i think is best is to have kids, and then spend their lives first resenting them, because pregnancy forced you to put your dreams and ambitions on hold, and then you should take your dreams and foist them on your child and then berate them whenever they fail to live up to said shattered dreams in order to instill a perpetual feeling of worthlessness and inadequacy no matter what they might happen to achieve.

that's what's kept the middle class striving for years!

 

[nathan1977]

what i think is best is to have kids, and then spend their lives first resenting them, because pregnancy forced you to put your dreams and ambitions on hold, and then you should take your dreams and foist them on your child and then berate them whenever they fail to live up to said shattered dreams in order to instill a perpetual feeling of worthlessness and inadequacy no matter what they might happen to achieve.

that's what's kept the middle class striving for years!

Way to make a sweeping generalization there, Irvine.

I was going to comment on this thread, but then I realized it's descended into incomprehensibility, and that there are ridiculous generalizations on both sides, so I'm going to leave well enough alone.

 

[U2isthebest]

what i think is best is to have kids, and then spend their lives first resenting them, because pregnancy forced you to put your dreams and ambitions on hold, and then you should take your dreams and foist them on your child and then berate them whenever they fail to live up to said shattered dreams in order to instill a perpetual feeling of worthlessness and inadequacy no matter what they might happen to achieve.

that's what's kept the middle class striving for years!

I'm totally on board with that. When did that ever go wro-oh wait....

In all seriousness, I will never understand the obsession in recent years with writing articles/blogging/debating etc. people's reproductive choices. If people want to have a child(ren) and they have the financial, physical, emotional, and mental stability and desire to do so, they should. If they choose not to have a child(ren) for any reason, that's their business as well. It should be a non-issue.

 

[Irvine511]

Way to make a sweeping generalization there, Irvine.

I was going to comment on this thread, but then I realized it's descended into incomprehensibility, and that there are ridiculous generalizations on both sides, so I'm going to leave well enough alone.

lighten up, nathan.

 

[yolland]

I thought it was pretty clear that Irvine was jokingly playing off financeguy's parenting-as-class-warfare advocacy.

But yes, there was a lot of outright ridiculousness in the last couple pages.

 

[indra]

But yes, there was a lot of outright ridiculousness in the last couple pages.

On the other hand, we did get a lovely example of exactly the type of comments several of the posters had mentioned in the first couple of pages.

 

[yolland]

I'm not sure those were quite the kinds of comments anyone had in mind actually. But they were ugly all right.

 

[Bono's shades]

That is exactly what I was doing, though his version was much more hate filled. I don't care, really, I just don't like to see anyone bashed for loving. And NO ONE who spends as much money as parents do on their kids are selfish, sorry. It's like calling suicide bombers 'cowards.' Sure takes a lot of guts to know you're going to die detonate the bomb anyway. I don't like or respect them or what they did, but don't call them 'cowards.' I really, really do think it's stupid of anyone to call anyone 'selfish' for wanting or not wanting a kid.

I don't think anyone is saying all parents are selfish. I think the point was not everyone becomes a parent for 100 percent alturistic reasons. Not every parent out there is a saint. If that were true, there wouldn't be any such thing as child abuse/neglect.

 

[yolland]

There's something in human nature that wants others to validate our choices by choosing the same thing.

That, and to want them to find our accomplishments, whatever they are, to say good things about us. Which unfortunately can lead to a felt need to denigrate those of others if you don't feel yours are getting enough respect.




Anyway...why 'bother' having children? For me, because they're fun, they're ever-changing and full of life and surprises and inspiration, because it's one very powerful way to give something back to the world, because it's among the most amazing privileges one can have to watch a wholly new and unique person gradually unfold and bloom and take flight before your eyes. Doesn't matter if they're your own by birth, though there is something very dear about holding your own flesh and blood in your arms for the first time, but that's certainly not the essence of what makes them a gift. Yes, they're an enormous investment in time and money and all the other concerns that come with feeling profoundly, directly responsible for someone; yes, the changes they bring may close off certain doors in life (and open others), though how inevitable that is is really much more up to you than you might think; yes, you need the support of other responsible adults to do this, in varying ways and at varying times. But all that is true of just about everything that's highly worthwhile in life. Childbirth...as another poster in here aptly once said, it's just another day in the life after all, nothing more.

Those would be some of my major 'whys', anyhow. Other parents would give different ones; no two people with children look at them quite the same way, and besides, it's very difficult to articulate these kinds of feelings and experiences adequately. My own have given me three more wonderful reasons to look forward to going home at the end of the day.

 

[martha]

^ You sure make it sound good.

 

[MadelynIris]

Awesome post Yolland. You said it so well.

 

[coolian2]

My mom knows better than to bug me about when I'm going to get married and give her grandbabies. She knows she might not be getting any from me.

i'm going to tell my mum that any time she asks/pesters/comments/jokes i'm going to push it back a month from whenever (a long long long way away please thank you god) we're ready just to annoy her.

 

[financeguy]

In all seriousness, I will never understand the obsession in recent years with writing articles/blogging/debating etc. people's reproductive choices. If people want to have a child(ren) and they have the financial, physical, emotional, and mental stability and desire to do so, they should. If they choose not to have a child(ren) for any reason, that's their business as well. It should be a non-issue.

Nice and clean and clinical, isn't it?

 

[kafrun]

It's really a non-issue with my circle of family and friends. It's not brought up, and really never has been except for an initial question when first meeting. "Do you have any kids?" "No." Moving on...

It really should be a non-issue at that point, but I have a friend who's been berated, even by perfect strangers, for answering "no" to this question. She's married, in her late thirties, and does not want children, nor has she ever wanted them. I don't get how or why people can get so up in arms over it.

Even more astounding to me is that she's had doctors try to talk her out of undergoing sterilization. She's been told that it's not a good idea, because she may change her mind. She even had one male doctor tell her that it was her "obligation as a woman" to bear children. I was shocked, to say the least, that that mindset exists in the 21st century.

 

[corianderstem]

She even had one male doctor tell her that it was her "obligation as a woman" to bear children. I was shocked, to say the least, that that mindset exists in the 21st century.

When will we women just learn that it's our sole responsibility to be a vessel for children? We serve no other purpose! We are nothing but our uteruses (uteri?)!

Vomit.

 

[financeguy]

Obviously, it is not the sole purpose of women to procreate - for example, there are activities such as cleaning, cooking, and so on and so forth (joke!) - but many people like to have kids, and shouldn't be judged for instincts that are fairly normal.

 

[kafrun]

When will we women just learn that it's our sole responsibility to be a vessel for children? We serve no other purpose! We are nothing but our uteruses (uteri?)!

Vomit.

I've done many things in my life, but I will not be a whole woman until I have utilized my uterus, I guess.

 

[kafrun]

but many people like to have kids, and shouldn't be judged for instincts that are fairly normal.

Certainly. No one should be judged on either side. I think people who give a great deal of thought to whatever choice they make are the least selfish of all.

 

[financeguy]

Only here is annrkeyintheusa given a hard time for saying stuff that is perfectly normal.

 

[financeguy]

what i think is best is to have kids, and then spend their lives first resenting them, because pregnancy forced you to put your dreams and ambitions on hold, and then you should take your dreams and foist them on your child and then berate them whenever they fail to live up to said shattered dreams in order to instill a perpetual feeling of worthlessness and inadequacy no matter what they might happen to achieve.

that's what's kept the middle class striving for years!

I have reservations about gays adopting kids - for example, the kids could be subjected to bullying - but it's abundantly clear to me that the average middle class gay couple make much better parents than the average heterosexual underclass/welfare couple.

 

[kafrun]

Only here is annrkeyintheusa given a hard time for saying stuff that is perfectly normal.

I don't know that calling people without kids hateful and accusing them of wanting all their time and money to themselves is normal stuff.

I have reservations about gays adopting kids - for example, the kids could be subjected to bullying - but it's abundantly clear to me that the average middle class gay couple make much better parents than the average heterosexual underclass/welfare couple.

Children are bullied for having interracial parents, poor parents, rich parents, physically disabled parents, etc. Children are bullied for wearing glasses. Children can be cruel.

 

[martha]

It really should be a non-issue at that point, but I have a friend who's been berated, even by perfect strangers, for answering "no" to this question.

Why the fuck are complete strangers even asking her a question like that?

 

[corianderstem]

If they ask why she doesn't want children, she should tell them, quite calmly, that she doesn't want them to turn out to be complete assholes like them.

Or, if she doesn't want to sink to their rude level, a perfectly cast withering glare before turning away would suffice.

 

[kafrun]

Why the fuck are complete strangers even asking her a question like that?

I'm assuming these were at parties, gatherings, etc. Beats me.

If they ask why she doesn't want children, she should tell them, quite calmly, that she doesn't want them to turn out to be complete assholes like them.

Or, if she doesn't want to sink to their rude level, a perfectly cast withering glare before turning away would suffice.

I'll tell her that.

 

[financeguy]

Why the fuck are complete strangers even asking her a question like that?

Curiosity?

 

[indra]

Only here is annrkeyintheusa given a hard time for saying stuff that is perfectly normal.

No. She wasn't given a hard time for saying things that are perfectly normal, she was rebuffed when she attacked those who don't want children as being selfish assholes while claiming great virtue for her views.