Baby refuseniks

[corianderstem]

The abbreviation of the movie Free Willy.

Maybe that wasn't the right line of thinking I was aiming for. Was just trying to refute the "but we must make the babies" argument.

I'm not too worried about the human race dying out anytime soon. I might not be birthin' no babies, but other people are more than making up for my lack of sprog.

 

[yolland]

I'm not even sure why this seems to be a contentious discussion at all. I don't even know who this woman is but even if I did, who cares why she does or doesn't want to get pregnant?

I'd never heard of her before either, but then I don't watch TV.

Her freely volunteered, publically stated (in a women's health magazine) reasoning for preferring adoption to pregnancy smacked of the familiar "Eww gross, pregnancy makes you fat and dumpy and I can't have that" line of thinking. The "contentiousness" would appear to be over whether one can roll their eyes at that without it being some sort of judgmental antifeminist statement. Since she's made her fortune promoting herself on TV as a woman fitness trainer, and was not being pressured to justify anything, personally I don't feel sorry for her having drawn some flak for that statement (mostly from birth mothers who felt insulted by it, unsurprisingly, but that's a lot of her fans and clients).

So far as I can tell, no one found the more general fact that she prefers to adopt rather than get pregnant contentious in itself. I think anyone can understand a woman who's already attracted to the idea of adoption considering it an added 'bonus' that she thereby wouldn't need to go through the physical burdens of pregnancy and childbirth, but I do find it a sad comment on how successful the commercialization of the female body in our culture has been at alienating women from their own bodies that a normal, natural, healthy function like pregnancy is sometimes viewed as an aesthetically unacceptable descent into a kind of 'animal' messiness. The reality is that idea is out there though.

 

[AliEnvy]

.

 

[Liesje]

I do find it a sad comment on how successful the commercialization of the female body in our culture has been at alienating women from their own bodies that a normal, natural, healthy function like pregnancy is sometimes viewed as an aesthetically unacceptable descent into a kind of 'animal' messiness. The reality is that idea is out there though.

I don't disagree with you here, I just don't really see the difference. So she thinks being pregnant is gross and aesthetically unacceptable, is that really any worse than me saying I don't want to get pregnant because I am happy with my current lifestyle and a baby would be too much of an interruption? I like being able to go on a 4 day road trip with only a 24 hour notice. I like spending time with Phil and sleeping in on Saturdays. I like spending money on photography equipment instead of diapers and formula. I like having paid vacation days where I'm actually on vacation rather than having to use them for having a baby. I like training dogs too much at this point in my life to give it up for having a baby when I still have a decade to do that if I want to.

I don't really think her reasoning is dumb (I can't relate to her or her lifestyle so I just plain don't care), but I think it was dumb of her to make that comment. She should have just said, "I plan to adopt." Would we think differently of her if that's all she'd said? Why? That's exactly what I say when nosey people ask me why I don't have any kids. "I plan to adopt" (because we do). For some reason that makes the nosey people go away. Maybe they think I can't conceive or something like that, maybe they should be more sensitive and less nosey in the first place...

 

[corianderstem]

So she thinks being pregnant is gross and aesthetically unacceptable, is that really any worse than me saying I don't want to get pregnant because I am happy with my current lifestyle and a baby would be too much of an interruption?

Huh, interesting point. I would comfortably say that there are people who would look upon those reasons as equally "selfish," that old happy fun times argument.

I have no problem with this person not wanting to get pregnant for that reason, but as others have pointed out, I think she really shot herself in the foot with her profession and is losing out on a gold mine of opportunity for post-pregnancy workout videos or whatever.

But hey. She's the only one who can decide what to do with her body, and who's to say she didn't consider the opportunity and come out the other end thinking "....nope. Still not gonna do it."

(Of course, then some might argue that that's a really questionable reason TO have a baby. )

 

[anitram]

So she thinks being pregnant is gross and aesthetically unacceptable, is that really any worse than me saying I don't want to get pregnant because I am happy with my current lifestyle and a baby would be too much of an interruption?

I totally agree.

Frankly I'm more concerned with all sorts of fucked up reasons based on which women have babies. As far as I can tell this one isn't harming a single other individual with her however vain statement.

 

[yolland]

...I think it was dumb of her to make that comment. She should have just said, "I plan to adopt." Would we think differently of her if that's all she'd said? Why?

Sounds like you already have an answer to your own "Why?" in mind, since you also say you "think it was dumb of her to make that comment." Why do you think that? I already explained why I thought it was "dumb" (though that probably wouldn't have been my word choice...more like ill-advised, and a bit sad as well, given the context).

So she thinks being pregnant is gross and aesthetically unacceptable, is that really any worse than me saying I don't want to get pregnant because I am happy with my current lifestyle and a baby would be too much of an interruption?

I plan on adopting because I just don't want to go through a pregnancy and birth when there are plenty of babies that already need families. What does that make me?

The first example isn't really relevant, since the Jillian Michaels story has nothing to do with decisions of whether and when to become a parent as such--it's about attitudes towards women's bodies, and in particular, pregnant women's bodies. In the second example, it's unambiguous from the context that you're thinking only in terms of your image of your own body (if that, even...I get the sense you're really talking more about aversion to pain than body image?). Unfortunately for Ms. Michaels, the reality is that context matters, and--apologies for sounding like a broken record here, but--when you suggest in an interview with a national women's health magazine, while speaking in your capacity as a nationally prominent female fitness trainer to women from all walks of life, that you "can't handle" inflicting the cosmetic horrors of "that" on your (literally, famously fit) body...well, guess what, some people are going to detect an insinuation or two that you perhaps find "that" grotesque and alien in general, because the reality is that strand of thinking is out there, and just about any woman who's ever been visibly pregnant has experienced it firsthand. (Equally patronizing counternarratives of perpetually starry-eyed, tummy-patting anticipatory ecstasy--read "presumed temporary mental incompetence"--notwithstanding.) And, guess what, some of them aren't gonna like what they think they're hearing, either. It shouldn't have taken rocket science for Michaels to foresee that.

 

[anitram]

Unfortunately for Ms. Michaels, the reality is that context matters, and--apologies for sounding like a broken record here, but--when you suggest in an interview with a national women's health magazine, while speaking in your capacity as a nationally prominent female fitness trainer to women from all walks of life, that you "can't handle" inflicting the cosmetic horrors of "that" on your (literally, famously fit) body...well, guess what, some people are going to detect an insinuation or two that you perhaps find "that" grotesque and alien in general

I really don't want to sound flippant, but...

so?

There are plenty of things that most of us find extremely unappealing about other people's bodies and we make those judgments every day. If she thinks that it's grotesque to have stretch marks, you can find 10 people who think that it's grotesque for a woman to have a gut hanging over her jeans or a triple chin.

I guess that I just don't really get why this is particularly insulting. And for the record, I don't share her views in the slightest, but ultimately I don't find them any more off-side than most of our judgments about other people's bodies.

 

[yolland]

I wasn't suggesting they were. Just explaining why I don't feel sorry for her, nor inclined to defend her, in drawing the reaction she did.

 

[Liesje]

Sounds like you already have an answer to your own "Why?" in mind, since you also say you "think it was dumb of her to make that comment." Why do you think that?

Because I think it's a nosey question and doesn't really need to be discussed unless it's between partners. IMO it was dumb to discuss publicly, regardless of the answer.

 

[financeguy]

So she thinks being pregnant is gross and aesthetically unacceptable

What she said just sounds too a bit neat and clinical to me. Like something a character in Brave New World would say to be honest. Now, granted, easy for a guy to say this.

Actually it occurs to me that with some exceptions there seems to be a slight generation gap in reactions to this discussion in the thread.

 

[financeguy]

I really don't want to sound flippant, but...

so?

There are plenty of things that most of us find extremely unappealing about other people's bodies and we make those judgments every day. If she thinks that it's grotesque to have stretch marks, you can find 10 people who think that it's grotesque for a woman to have a gut hanging over her jeans or a triple chin.

I guess that I just don't really get why this is particularly insulting. And for the record, I don't share her views in the slightest, but ultimately I don't find them any more off-side than most of our judgments about other people's bodies.

Surely there is a big difference here. Physical characteristics like guts and triple chins are usually from poor lifestyle whereas physical changes due to pregnancy are, well, completely natural.

She is currently embroiled in a lawsuit over the efficacy of her diet pills.

I tend to assume that anyone involved in the marketing of diet pills is basically a charlatan.

 

[Liesje]

What she said just sounds too a bit neat and clinical to me. Like something a character in Brave New World would say to be honest. Now, granted, easy for a guy to say this.

I don't know what she actually said, I was repeating what yolland said.

 

[AliEnvy]

Frankly I'm more concerned with all sorts of fucked up reasons based on which women have babies.

Must agree with this. I have far more respect for a carefully considered decision (whatever the reason) not to become a parent than for those who blindly jump or fall into it and do it badly.

As far as I can tell this one isn't harming a single other individual with her however vain statement.

If you believe as a public figure that she has no influence, maybe. As Yolland mentioned, perhaps a warped body image message for an adopted child, especially a daughter. It's certainly going to affect the commission of her agent and the stress level of her publicist.

Actually it occurs to me that with some exceptions there seems to be a slight generation gap in reactions to this discussion in the thread.

Tread carefully there, buddy.

Actually it's more of a motherhood gap. Mothers being sensitive to the public perception of the utility and value of women's bodies being more than skin deep and non-mothers sensitive to the pressure of being non-mothers and any insinuation that it's not natural or acceptable. I am certainly not insinuating that in the least...I've lived in both camps.

 

[Liesje]

If you believe as a public figure that she has no influence, maybe.

So it really is that she is held to a higher standard b/c she is rich and famous?

Actually it's more of a motherhood gap. Mothers being sensitive to the public perception of the utility and value of women's bodies being more than skin deep and non-mothers sensitive to the pressure of being non-mothers and any insinuation that it's not natural or acceptable. I am certainly not insinuating that in the least...I've lived in both camps.

I think he made a fair observation and you're probably right.

 

[AliEnvy]

So it really is that she is held to a higher standard b/c she is rich and famous?

She's held to a higher standard because she's a high-profile fitness role model being celebrated on the cover of Women's Health. That is to say that she represents healthy bodies and healthy body image for women and people pay attention to her (and pay $$$ for her) advice as an expert in the area.

Comments that suggest that pregnancy is somehow unhealthful or ruins your body are incredibly irresponsible. Women's (girls especially) images of what constitutes a healthy and attractive body in the media are warped enough as it is.

 

[Liesje]

Since she is someone who makes a living being skinny and toned, looking good, and trying to get others to be skinny and toned too, the comments don't really surprise me. Is she really a role model? I don't know, I don't really know much about her but don't usually consider high profile fitness instructors that are pushing diet pills to be role models, regardless of how they feel about pregnancy.

 

[AliEnvy]

I'd like to think that any of the sleazy reality tv stars aren't role models, but a profile on the cover of Women's Health lends a little more cred than a typical gossip rag. Credibility she probably doesn't deserve, for more reasons than her view of pregnancy.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

(June 25 Reuters) - More American women are choosing not to have children than three decades ago, according to a new report.

Nearly 20 percent of older women do not have children, compared to 10 percent in the 1970s, the Pew Research Center said.

"In recent decades, social pressure to play traditional roles has lessened in a broad variety of ways and there is more leeway for individual choice. This could play a part in lowering pressure for people to get married and bear children," said D'Vera Cohn, a co-author of the report.

"Women have more options than in the past to build strong careers and to exercise the choice not to have children," she added in an email.

The findings in the report are based on data from the Census Bureau's Current Population Survey.

Cohn said another reason for the increase is that children are seen by some as less important for a successful marriage. A 2007 Pew survey found that 41 percent of adults said that children are very important for a good marriage, down from 65 percent in 1990.

One in five white women ages 40-44 were childless in 2008, compared with 17 percent of black and Hispanic women and 16 percent of Asian women. Between 1994 and 2008, the childlessness rates for black and Hispanic women rose by almost a third, much higher than the 11 percent increase for white women.

Education also seems to be a factor in a woman's choice to be a mother. The more educated women are, the higher the childless rate is.

For women with a high school diploma, the rate is 17 percent, compared to 24 percent of women with a bachelor's degree. But the childlessness rate has decreased for women with advanced degrees from 31 percent in 1994 to 24 percent in 2008.

"Economists will tell you that more educated women have more to gain economically from prioritizing their careers, compared with less educated women," said Cohn.

"The most educated women also tend to marry at older ages and to postpone childbearing until older ages more than less educated women do," Cohn said.

 

[BVS]

I was having a converstion this weekend with a friend of the family, a true Tea Party member through and through, and I was telling him about my upcoming wedding plans and he said, "you better have three kids if not the Muslims are going to take over the world". He was dead serious...

 

[kassandra]

I was having a converstion this weekend with a friend of the family, a true Tea Party member through and through, and I was telling him about my upcoming wedding plans and he said, "you better have three kids if not the Muslims are going to take over the world". He was dead serious...

People are insane and paranoid.

 

[martha]

my upcoming wedding plans

Congratulations!

 

[BVS]

Thank you

 

[nathan1977]

Thank you

Mazel -- may it be a long and happy marriage...