Athens burns - is this a citizens' revolt against the corporatist EU elite?

[financeguy]

Greece news, latest and breaking national news and regional news from Greece - Telegraph



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...re-on-the-capitals-goose-stepping-guards.html

Greeks complain that the cost of living has soared since the country adopted the euro in 2002. Costas Karamanlis, who won a second term in office last year, has won praise from the European Union for slashing budget deficits and pushing ahead with unpopular reforms and privatisation. But his efforts have met with violent street protests, often involving students.

 

[the iron horse]

I"m with the Greeks!

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.
~Thomas Jefferson

 

[bigjohn2441]

when governments no longer serve the interests of the people, the people need to take action to correct it. (a nice way of saying overthrow it)

not that we have to worry about that in the USA

 

[purpleoscar]

The Greeks like budget deficits? This just proves that if you incur a deficit don't expect that it will be popular to reduce it in the future.

 

[yolland]

is this a citizens' revolt against the corporatist EU elite?

On some level, I think yes; but it would be simplistic not to also take modern Greece's long history of anarchist youth movements and their clashes with police and governments into account. This is not the first time this has happened there.

 

[cydewaze]

I guess I don't understand the whole thing. Some kid pelted a police car with rocks, then threw a fire bomb at it, right?

I guess I would expect to get shot at after doing something like that. But then again, I live in Maryland, where the police point a gun at you for trying to report an accident.

 

[Pearl]

Unrest that has gripped Greece for the past six days showed troubling signs of spreading across Europe, as violence erupted in several cities.

Angry youths smashed shop windows, attacked banks and hurled bottles at police in small but violent protests Thursday in Spain and Denmark, while cars were set alight outside a consulate in France. Protesters gathered in front of the Greek Embassy in Rome on Wednesday and some turned violent, damaging police vehicles, overturning a car and setting a trash can on fire.

Authorities say the incidents have been isolated so far, but acknowledge concern that the Greek riots — which started over the police killing of a 15-year-old on Saturday — could be a trigger for anti-globalization groups and others outraged by economic turmoil and a lack of job opportunities.

"What's happening in Greece tends to prove that the extreme left exists, contrary to doubts of some over these past few weeks," French Interior Ministry spokesman Gerard Gachet told The Associated Press. "For the moment, we can't go farther with our conclusions and say that there's a danger of contagion of the Greek situation into France. All of that is being watched."

As Europe plunges into recession, unemployment is rising, particularly among the young. Even before the crisis, European youths complained about difficulty finding well paid jobs — even with a college degree — and many said they felt left out as the continent grew in prosperity.

Greek-inspired demonstrations spread - Yahoo! News

 

[ntalwar]

when governments no longer serve the interests of the people, the people need to take action to correct it. (a nice way of saying overthrow it)

The problems are largely related to the global economic crisis - e.g. high unemployment. So it may be beyond the ability of the Greek government (or any government) to correct it.

 

[pgv]

On some level, I think yes; but it would be simplistic not to also take modern Greece's long history of anarchist youth movements and their clashes with police and governments into account. This is not the first time this has happened there.

I agree - it would be wrong to completely pigeon hole this issue as being that of 'anti-Eu.' There is a lot of public bad feeling in Greece what with low unemployment rates, the current economic crisis, the clashes with the police etc etc. I certainly think this will be a hard problem to deal with on the Governments part.

 

[Vincent Vega]

The problems are largely related to the global economic crisis - e.g. high unemployment. So it may be beyond the ability of the Greek government (or any government) to correct it.

I would argue most of those that cause the trouble in the streets don't really care that much for the crisis (except for feeling vindicated that capitalism always was evil and had to break down at some point) and aren't directly affected by unemployment as they have been unemployed long before any crisis broke out.
Most of those that took to the streets violently are ultra-leftists who more or less waited for a reason to cause the troubles. They have been in fights for authorities for quite a long time.
You find such people in every major city in Europe, hence why it now spreads. It's like one or two years back when Danish authorities closed down a youth center in Copenhagen that was known for being a place to sell drugs. First the youth in Copenhagen threw stones and such, and soon other punks in Hamburg and Berlin joined them in solidarity, doing the same in these two cities.
The current crisis doesn't make them any more or less upset with authorities and the capitalist society at large.

 

[purpleoscar]

I wish people actually knew what capitalism is before they knock it.

 

[anitram]

I have to agree with Vincent Vega here.

The old Greek woman I spoke to about this last week dismissed it as "punks & thugs" again, and didn't really seem to think much of it.

 

[pgv]

I wish people actually knew what capitalism is before they knock it.

 

[financeguy]

I have to agree with Vincent Vega here.

The old Greek woman I spoke to about this last week dismissed it as "punks & thugs" again, and didn't really seem to think much of it.

Wow. Pretty scientific.

 

[financeguy]

I wish people actually knew what capitalism is before they knock it.

Yep, it's a fair point. It's convenient for Eurofederalists to blame 'capitalism'.

 

[anitram]

Wow. Pretty scientific.

Whoever claimed that it was?

I just got a very different reaction from somebody who lives there 6 months a year as opposed to this forum. Is it worth considering? Sure, why not.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Yep, it's a fair point. It's convenient for Eurofederalists to blame 'capitalism'.

They are not really fond of the whole EU thing, at all.

 

[Popmartijn]

Yep, it's a fair point. It's convenient for Eurofederalists to blame 'capitalism'.

And it's convenient for British Eurosceptics to blame 'the EU'.

 

[hiphop]

I wish people actually knew what capitalism is before they knock it.

I guess they do.

 

[purpleoscar]

I guess they do.

If people think that Greece is a perfect example of capitalism then they don't.

 

[Vincent Vega]

If people think that Greece is a perfect example of capitalism then they don't.

I think you totally misunderstood that. No one speaks of a perfect capitalist country, and no one said they think that.
Nonetheless, against public belief in the United States (among the Conservatives), Greece is not a Socialist state either, as isn't the whole institution of the European Union. It is rooted in Capitalist structures, and that is what they take issue with.
And you shouldn't underestimate the intellect among a large part of the alternative scene in Europe. There is those who prefer violence over everything else, and some are in just for that reason, but by and large it is a scene made up of a great many intellectuals. They might be idealists and you might not agree with their world view, but they are nonetheless very knowledgeable.

 

[purpleoscar]

I think you totally misunderstood that. No one speaks of a perfect capitalist country, and no one said they think that.
Nonetheless, against public belief in the United States (among the Conservatives), Greece is not a Socialist state either, as isn't the whole institution of the European Union. It is rooted in Capitalist structures, and that is what they take issue with.

The lessons of Greece's riots | They do protest too much | The Economist

What they take issue with is that their parents are being squeezed by the downturn in the economy which affects funding for studying abroad and students have long waits in finding jobs in Greece.

Index of Economic Freedom

I think this is a better illustration of the problems Greece has. There have been some improvements but there are lots more areas to change especially in private property rights, costs of labor, and investment freedom. In fact if they drastically improved those areas they would be closer to Canada. It's amazing that reducing red tape can create such an economic benefit that reducing the government size of GDP (around 40%) wouldn't be as necessary. They don't have to be Singapore to realize this improvement and certainly they are not like North Korea which is rated at 3% free. Ouch!

And you shouldn't underestimate the intellect among a large part of the alternative scene in Europe. There is those who prefer violence over everything else, and some are in just for that reason, but by and large it is a scene made up of a great many intellectuals. They might be idealists and you might not agree with their world view, but they are nonetheless very knowledgeable.

They are knowledgeable but I don't think they are very knowledgeable about economics. Despite Conservative corruption I hope that if the left wins in future elections that they won't wipe out the economic freedom gains that have been created. Corruption has less to do with capitalistic structures than with the justice system. It also doesn't help that they have laws that outlaw police from universities where anarchists make petrol bombs.

I hope when the students do their studies they put as much effort into them and their jobs as they do with making petrol bombs.

 

[BVS]

They are knowledgeable but I don't think they are very knowledgeable about economics. Despite Conservative corruption I hope that if the left wins in future elections that they won't wipe out the economic freedom gains that have been created.

 

[purpleoscar]

 

[BVS]

I me some oscar generalizations...

 

[purpleoscar]

I me some oscar generalizations...

Here are some specifics:

Index of Economic Freedom

This is a country that anarchists and other left wing intellectuals like.

Index of Economic Freedom

Here's another country that anarchists like.

Here's a notable leftwing intellectual:

YouTube - Naomi Klein Breaks Down the Bailout

Nationalize Exxon? This looks just like Chavez. Surprise, surprise!

YouTube - Noam Chomsky, Ralph Nader on Wall st bailout.

More left wing intellectuals. Why is it that Keynesian economics is so pervasive that they attack capitalism instead of Keynesian economics for the debt problem?

This far right guy I :

YouTube - When Peter Schiff talks..Americans should listen!!!

The government needs to cuts spending and balance the budget ASAP and individuals need to reduce their spending and tackle their overall debt, especially consumer debt that is at higher interest rates. Capitalism works when people save a proportion of their income and spend a proportion. The correct proportion is different for each individual based on their expectations on what they would like to spend in their retirement. If people want to live with a low standard of living in their old age then by all means they can spend more in the present moment. Most people would like to have more protection in retirement due to health costs and not working. My question is: Do people actually want to do the effort necessary to achieve their retirement goals?

When it comes to monetary and fiscal policies I trust libertarians more. What Greenspan did was Keyensian economics and the left is licking their lips at the opportunity to increase the size of government and blame capitalism for government mistakes. Maybe the government shouldn't have lowered interest rates so low for so long.

YouTube - Greenspan's Irrational Exuberance

 

[BVS]

That's awesome. You quoted my comment on generalizations and responded with bigger and more laughable generalizations, you're on a roll.

"This is a country that anarchists and other left wing intellectuals like."

and none of which is about Greece, I love it.

 

[BVS]

Capitalism works when people save a proportion of their income and spend a proportion. The correct proportion is different for each individual based on their expectations on what they would like to spend in their retirement.

This is such an elementary, naive, and black and white explanation that just misses and avoids so many factors. But I'm glad that you at least admit that capitalism is fallible, though you're not entirely correct on why, but you at least admit it has weaknesses. Many do not, and worship it as some infallible god.

Your view, as you've been shown in here time after time only to ignore it, avoids factors such as not all will be able to save, not all will be capable of getting out of the cycle of poverty, greed, corruption, unforeseeable circumstances, and many many others...

 

[purpleoscar]

That's awesome. You quoted my comment on generalizations and responded with bigger and more laughable generalizations, you're on a roll.

"This is a country that anarchists and other left wing intellectuals like."

and none of which is about Greece, I love it.

You always steer the conversation away from context. I was talking to Vega on Europeans and left wing intellectuals. Left wing intellectuals like Cuba and Venezuela. Who are you fooling? Countries like Venezuela and Cuba are a goal for left wing intellectuals. No one is saying all of Greece is left wing intellectuals. I gave plenty of details in prior posts on this thread on what could be improved in Greece without going the left wing way. You are the one who ignores.

 

[purpleoscar]

This is such an elementary, naive, and black and white explanation that just misses and avoids so many factors. But I'm glad that you at least admit that capitalism is fallible, though you're not entirely correct on why, but you at least admit it has weaknesses. Many do not, and worship it as some infallible god.

Now who is generalizing? Capitalism is not a god or a perfect system because humans aren't perfect. Capitalism is about choice. If people make bad choices like bad investments or borrow too much they should pay the consequences for that. How are people going to learn? It's actually possible to lose your house and belongings that were paid for with debt (other people's money) and still get fed and learn financial lessons that allow you to start again. We already have lots of programs. Why more? Nobody shut down the food bank or eliminated MedicAid or Medicare that I know of? The left wants more and more. Yet there has to be many successful people out there paying for it while taking care of their own responsibilities. Does anybody have compassion for the taxpayer?

Your view, as you've been shown in here time after time only to ignore it, avoids factors such as not all will be able to save, not all will be capable of getting out of the cycle of poverty, greed, corruption, unforeseeable circumstances, and many many others...

Tell me, after all the government intervention in the 20th century has all the poverty, greed, corruption, unforeseeable circumstances disappeared? No. So socialism doesn't protect people from their choices. We want people fed and to stay alive but they are going to have to pay for what they want and not just borrow for it. Debt is a tool, not a lifestyle.

I find lots of immigrants who save lots and sacrifice consumptive goods with low wages. They aren't as spoiled as people born in wealthy countries that have demands and entitlements beyond their means. You have to sacrifice financially to save. People who lived under dire circumstances know the opportunities in North America and they can tell the difference. I don't want to eliminate all social programs but I do want to be able to pay for them.

Yes it's actually possible to promise social programs and not have the money to pay for them. Most people can save and those who can should. The taxpayer should not be bailing out people who make more money than the average in the population. Those workers should go work for other companies that actually make products people want. Those who can't find work right away can get welfare until they get a job. Welfare is supposed to be temporary. Those who are handicapped and medically ill should be helped. Now does everybody go on welfare during a recession? No. Does everyone have mental retardation and medical illnesses? No. Those people who are healthy pay for those programs but if the taxes get too high the incentive to work diminishes and people work less. When people produce less, guess what? There is less to distribute. It's in the interest of the socially inclined to have a healthy market. Money only has meaning when there are lots of products and services available at its command. To survive this debt problem the social programs should be kept to a minimum if we want to keep giving people programs. The government in New Zealand in the '90s is an example of rationing programs. Nobody seems to look at that as a failure.

Americans were on Keynesian cocaine for years and now they have to have their withdrawal symptoms. It's called tough love:

YouTube - I.O.U.S.A.: Byte-Sized - The 30 Minute Version