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Old 02-05-2010, 02:05 AM   #61
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I suspect that we agree in different language.

I see life as a product of the second law of thermodynamics, the universe is going from ordered to a disordered state, but that is locally reversed on Earth by life which is able to build up order and complexity by taking in energy (mostly from the sun through photosynthesis). I meant to convey it, but I truncated most of the post.

I have a reductionist view that the wonderful complexity of life is built through bottom up processes, and I mixed up your use of intelligent agency in your earlier post.
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Old 02-05-2010, 07:33 AM   #62
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For me, the most compelling reason to lean toward the believing side is the same one that has worked on probably billions of people for thousands of years. Yes, I know, it's small-minded and superstitious but, it is the concept of some sort of heaven. It is very difficult to process the notion that, once they die, the people I love might just be dead forever. Keeping hope that there is a heaven, and that the people I love will be happy and safe (and maybe even I could be with them) instead of just dead and decomposing, is appealing.

In the alternative, years of religious education, despite more years of secular exposure, have planted an equally powerful image that, I may still have my own personal Bar-B-Q waiting for me at the end. I'd like to avoid that if possible.

The fact is, I think I am happier when I don't torture myself with these questions. The unexamined life is worth living. I am going to have my breakfast now.
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:49 AM   #63
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I have a reductionist view that the wonderful complexity of life is built through bottom up processes,
And it is, but in isolation of top-down processes that serve a global purpose within the realm of natural law? It seems to me that ALL systems are built with bottom-up and top-down processes. Just because we're just not always sure what purpose the top-down proccesses are serving, doesn't mean there isn't one, just means we haven't found it yet. Or something like that.
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Old 02-05-2010, 01:29 PM   #64
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1. What is the purpose of our existence .. God created us to look after the earth and the animals and each other under his guidance and protection, we were never meant to get old or die, but procreate on the earth and fill it and look after it, that is why we don't want to die, that is why death is such a terrible thing.. it was never meant to be

2. So Why isnt that the way it is ? .. you will have humour me here, and take the account in genesis about adam and Eve in the garden of eden and believe it really happened

Lets take in the fact that the serpent who spoke to her was satan who was also an angel in heaven, now lets say he seen an opportunity here, that he decided he didnt want to live under Gods rule and wanted to do his own thing, but he needs a few allies so he picks on Gods newest creation Adam and Eve, in his insidous way he knew God told them not to eat from the tree or they would die, so knowing they were still pretty niave, he implies that God is lying to them and is actually holding something back from them and makes them believe that by eating from the tree they will become like God and they wouldn't die.. this was the first lie, and Adam and eve realised this after they ate from the tree.

So basically what Satan done by this small act is question if God has the right to rule over his subjects he creates or would they be better of without them?

now if God had destroyed satan, adam and eve right there and then, the question of his right to have a say over us would still be there, and called to question by the other angels

So the only option God had to prove if satan's accusations, were true or false and that we would be better of without God was to let the events play out in that way and let men rule themselves for a period of time

But because Adam and Eve had already disobeyed God and become imperfect which is what sin is, and what also causes death, it would also passed onto their offspring I guess it just messed up our gentetic code so that we ended up growing old and dying

But God had not given up his orginal purpose for us, but because thanks to Adam and eve disobedience it doomed us to imperfection sickness, but death he put in a plan to save us from that

Whilst satan was busy setting up his new rulership over earth, God was setting up his own to counteract it. and bring about a means of saving us, because he knew that not all of Adam and Eve's offspring would want to go along with the rebellion, and they want to worship God. but someone had to buy back the perfection for us that adam and eve lost

and because a it was perfect man had lost what we were meant to be, it had to be a perfect man, who would get us back on track which was why Jesus came into the earth,

When Jesus performed thos miracles like healing the sick, feeding the hungry bringing people back to life, even calming the sea showing he had power over the elements, he was actually showing this is what God wants for us and what he intends to do when he gets rid of satan..

the reason why he allowed the suffering ect to go on was to show this is the result of Satan rebellion, when he claimed we can manage without God, it does not bring us a better life, we can see this for ourselves.

Humans have tried all sorts of goverments. he has let them reach their potential scientifically and with all the technology ect. but the truth is people are still suffering and people are still dying, and its full of corruption and the world is not a great place a times

But God has set a time when he will say, enough is enough.. I have proved my point, and he will step in and do away with what we have now, and replace it with his goverment

and he will fulfill his original purpose which was to have the earth filled with people living happily together looking after it. and the animals and each other, there will be no more death no more suffering no more sickness or crime ect, and he will undo all the things that have happened, even resurrecting all our loved ones, are family and friends so we can be with them again, including all those that have died through human conflicts and natural disasters,

that is what the whole bible from beginning to end is trying to tell you

not that you will burn in hell, or its gods will that we suffer and die then all go up to heaven to be with him. or that he is some abstract being that doesnt care for us
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Old 02-05-2010, 06:35 PM   #65
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Hell was made up years after most foundations of religion were established. They decided positive reinforcement was not enough, so they needed to create a negative reinforcement.
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Old 02-05-2010, 07:31 PM   #66
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Hell was made up years after most foundations of religion were established. They decided positive reinforcement was not enough, so they needed to create a negative reinforcement.
Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sheol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 02-05-2010, 09:10 PM   #67
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Ever since I was a young child, I remember thinking that God owed us all at least one "revelation" in our lifetime. Since I was taught that my eternal soul depended upon believing in God; and, at the same time, God had created a reasonably intelligent being that would of course doubt what it had no obvious evidence of, how then, I wondered, could I be eternally damned by a loving God for doubting? I thought, if God just gave us one simple revelation of himself during our life and said, "Here I AM, Knuckle. I am who am. It's all true. Well, that's it. Be good now. Or don't. You have free will now don't forget." That would have been enough for me (and just about every human being I expect).

That just seemed fair to me as a child. It still does. But I'm still waiting to be struck off my horse while riding to Damascus. Then I can start my letter writing campaign to the people of Corinth (even though they'll never listen anyway).
God wants to test us. See if we'll really believe what he says. He gave us a mind to make choices and he wants to really make us use that mind. If he just said "Oh hey look I am God. I am the messiah! I created the universe!" There'd really be no point.
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Old 02-05-2010, 09:16 PM   #68
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Yes, indeed. There's a trickster God running around, testing our faith. That's a God to believe in!
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:23 PM   #69
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I'm looking forward to the atheist convention in Melbourne, it just sold out last week and should have some brilliant speeches and interesting people.
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Old 02-06-2010, 08:32 AM   #70
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1. What is the purpose of our existence .. God created us to look after the earth and the animals and each other under his guidance and protection, we were never meant to get old or die, but procreate on the earth and fill it and look after it, that is why we don't want to die, that is why death is such a terrible thing.. it was never meant to be

2. So Why isnt that the way it is ? .. you will have humour me here, and take the account in genesis about adam and Eve in the garden of eden and believe it really happened

Lets take in the fact that the serpent who spoke to her was satan who was also an angel in heaven, now lets say he seen an opportunity here, that he decided he didnt want to live under Gods rule and wanted to do his own thing, but he needs a few allies so he picks on Gods newest creation Adam and Eve, in his insidous way he knew God told them not to eat from the tree or they would die, so knowing they were still pretty niave, he implies that God is lying to them and is actually holding something back from them and makes them believe that by eating from the tree they will become like God and they wouldn't die.. this was the first lie, and Adam and eve realised this after they ate from the tree.

So basically what Satan done by this small act is question if God has the right to rule over his subjects he creates or would they be better of without them?

now if God had destroyed satan, adam and eve right there and then, the question of his right to have a say over us would still be there, and called to question by the other angels

So the only option God had to prove if satan's accusations, were true or false and that we would be better of without God was to let the events play out in that way and let men rule themselves for a period of time

But because Adam and Eve had already disobeyed God and become imperfect which is what sin is, and what also causes death, it would also passed onto their offspring I guess it just messed up our gentetic code so that we ended up growing old and dying

But God had not given up his orginal purpose for us, but because thanks to Adam and eve disobedience it doomed us to imperfection sickness, but death he put in a plan to save us from that

Whilst satan was busy setting up his new rulership over earth, God was setting up his own to counteract it. and bring about a means of saving us, because he knew that not all of Adam and Eve's offspring would want to go along with the rebellion, and they want to worship God. but someone had to buy back the perfection for us that adam and eve lost

and because a it was perfect man had lost what we were meant to be, it had to be a perfect man, who would get us back on track which was why Jesus came into the earth,

When Jesus performed thos miracles like healing the sick, feeding the hungry bringing people back to life, even calming the sea showing he had power over the elements, he was actually showing this is what God wants for us and what he intends to do when he gets rid of satan..

the reason why he allowed the suffering ect to go on was to show this is the result of Satan rebellion, when he claimed we can manage without God, it does not bring us a better life, we can see this for ourselves.

Humans have tried all sorts of goverments. he has let them reach their potential scientifically and with all the technology ect. but the truth is people are still suffering and people are still dying, and its full of corruption and the world is not a great place a times

But God has set a time when he will say, enough is enough.. I have proved my point, and he will step in and do away with what we have now, and replace it with his goverment

and he will fulfill his original purpose which was to have the earth filled with people living happily together looking after it. and the animals and each other, there will be no more death no more suffering no more sickness or crime ect, and he will undo all the things that have happened, even resurrecting all our loved ones, are family and friends so we can be with them again, including all those that have died through human conflicts and natural disasters,

that is what the whole bible from beginning to end is trying to tell you

not that you will burn in hell, or its gods will that we suffer and die then all go up to heaven to be with him. or that he is some abstract being that doesnt care for us

Sorry, I just can't get past a talking snake as a FACT
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Old 02-06-2010, 08:56 AM   #71
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I never claimed the snake was talking, I said it was satan using the snake much like a ventriliquist, and tricked her. you have to understand that Eve was the newest creation and she might not have come across a snake before, so she might not have found it as odd that it could speak.. thats why he approached her first and not Adam
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Old 02-06-2010, 09:01 AM   #72
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Again with the talking snakes. Christ. Just when I was trying to give religion a good name.
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Old 02-06-2010, 10:33 AM   #73
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The headlines always remind of us everything that religion brings to the table...

Turkish Girl, 16, Buried Alive By Relatives For Talking To Boys - cbs3.com

Your own child? Your own grandchild? Your own sister?
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Old 02-06-2010, 11:00 AM   #74
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I never claimed the snake was talking, I said it was satan using the snake much like a ventriliquist, and tricked her. you have to understand that Eve was the newest creation and she might not have come across a snake before, so she might not have found it as odd that it could speak.. thats why he approached her first and not Adam
As I mentioned earlier, the Bible was never meant to be taken literally. Even the book of Genesis was seen as an allegory from the very beginning. Its only in the last 200 years that the Bible - for some odd reason - has been taken as the exact word of God. Theologians like Thomas Aquinas and the like would be very puzzled by today's view of the Bible. They might even see it as idolatry to see the Bible as the exact word of God.
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Old 02-06-2010, 11:03 AM   #75
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The headlines always remind of us everything that religion brings to the table...

Turkish Girl, 16, Buried Alive By Relatives For Talking To Boys - cbs3.com

Your own child? Your own grandchild? Your own sister?
Sick.

Apparently with these people, the reputation of the family is more important than anything. Even the love of a family member, which clearly they lack.
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