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Old 12-04-2006, 04:08 PM   #46
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy


Yes. I don't see how close-minded you have to be to ignore the fact that parents are role models for their children.
Close minded? Of course parents are role models, but some things are not learned.

I grew up with unaffectionate sexless parents do you think I learned how not to have sex? My friend grew up in a single parent's home where the mother never dated again, do you think she learned how to be single all her life?

No, we are both very sexual beings.

Sorry, I'm not going to divert this thread anymore.
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Old 12-04-2006, 04:10 PM   #47
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Close minded? Of course parents are role models, but some things are not learned.

I grew up with unaffectionate sexless parents do you think I learned how not to have sex? My friend grew up in a single parent's home where the mother never dated again, do you think she learned how to be single all her life?

No, we are both very sexual beings.

Sorry, I'm not going to divert this thread anymore.

Well, since you've clearly mentioned the majority of the people in the world and all two of them turned out ok I guess that it MUST be true.
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Old 12-04-2006, 04:16 PM   #48
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Well, since you've clearly mentioned the majority of the people in the world and all two of them turned out ok I guess that it MUST be true.
Yeah you missed the point. If sexuality is learned than homosexuality wouldn't exist, for who is it that reproduces?

It's a ridiculous premise.
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Old 12-04-2006, 04:21 PM   #49
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy


Yes. I don't see how close-minded you have to be to ignore the fact that parents are role models for their children.


my parents have role-modeled heterosexuality for my entire life.

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Old 12-04-2006, 04:58 PM   #50
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do you think there's anything you've gained by having same-gendered parents? are there certain attitudes or insights that you possess that the children of opposite-gendered parents might not?
Yes. Part of it might be how my parents raised me and their values and my Jewish values, but a lot of that can't be separated from the fact that they are lesbians. I feel like I am more empathetic to persecuted minorities than others (being otherwise white, middle class, etc) and can really empathize with people living in the closet and coming out. I'm probably more accepting of differences. And when I say "more" here, I mean more than the average person, or more than I would have been, not more than anyone.


And Bonovoxsupastar, Happy Bday and good points up there. I don't feel the need to get in on it at the moment, you said all I would have said.
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Old 12-04-2006, 05:09 PM   #51
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Old 12-04-2006, 06:10 PM   #52
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I was thinking about this thread on the Stairmaster this morning.

It's the young people that make me think our country will recover and be ok. See, when young people think that having gay parents is ok, they will be unwilling to allow others to discriminate. I thknk this always has to happen; the kids have to grow up with acceptance and then change what the unaccepting adults have done.

I may not be making much sense, but it's been a long day today.
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Old 12-04-2006, 06:12 PM   #53
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I was thinking about this thread on the Stairmaster this morning.

It's the young people that make me think our country will recover and be ok. See, when young people think that having gay parents is ok, they will be unwilling to allow others to discriminate. I thknk this always has to happen; the kids have to grow up with acceptance and then change what the unaccepting adults have done.

I may not be making much sense, but it's been a long day today.
You and I have very similar thoughts. WE may be near the end of the lifeline when we see progress.
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Old 12-04-2006, 06:19 PM   #54
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You and I have very similar thoughts. WE may be near the end of the lifeline when we see progress.
But at least we can encourage the kids!

And, we're thinking of the children!
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Old 12-04-2006, 07:50 PM   #55
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You said you have a family of four girls, 3 other sisters am I right??! So I guess I'm wondering would your opinions and thoughts on your parent situation be different were you a male??! Obviously it's impossible for you to answer this, but its often said 'a boy needs his father.' It would be hard to deny that a male would be disadvantaged having lesbian parents, i'm not sure that would be an ideal parenting situation in this regard. I read myself that according to many crimonologists boys with absent fathers have often been lead to violence and crime. The relationship between a boy and his Father is such a vital and important one that really shapes a child, more so I think then between a girl and her Father.

Its great that you dont feel disadvantaged at all and are totally content with your family structure but just throwing it out there do u think a male might feel differently??!
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Old 12-04-2006, 08:55 PM   #56
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Originally posted by jonnytakeawalk
You said you have a family of four girls, 3 other sisters am I right??! So I guess I'm wondering would your opinions and thoughts on your parent situation be different were you a male??! Obviously it's impossible for you to answer this, but its often said 'a boy needs his father.' It would be hard to deny that a male would be disadvantaged having lesbian parents, i'm not sure that would be an ideal parenting situation in this regard. I read myself that according to many crimonologists boys with absent fathers have often been lead to violence and crime. The relationship between a boy and his Father is such a vital and important one that really shapes a child, more so I think then between a girl and her Father.

Its great that you dont feel disadvantaged at all and are totally content with your family structure but just throwing it out there do u think a male might feel differently??!
Actually I meant me, my one sister, and my two mothers, but I can see how that would be confusing!

Not sure why you're capitalizing "father" unless you're referring to God. And I can't attest to what it would have been like to be male with two mothers, but I can relate 3 examples from my childhood group of three families: There's a guy with a younger sister, so he's really alone. He's normal, a bit of a video/computer game geek but only violent playing the video games, ha. We are almost like siblings, and I know he doesn't wish he'd had a father or feel any sort of absense - then again one of his mothers was a combination of a lesbian martha stewart and a kickass GI Joe. Kinda hard to describe other than that she's awesome. Another guy has a little brother, so he's not the lone male. He smokes too much weed (in my opinion) but is generally a normal college student. I've heard him say, because we've participated in groups for gay couples considering having kids, that he doesn't care that he doesn't have a father and is perfectly happy the way it is. The third is an only child, friendly and charming but also kind of introspective, by no means violent or maladjusted. I don't think any of them would change their family situation, except perhaps the one whose parents had a bad "divorce" - but that can happen to any couple, gay or straight. Then tehre's a guy I know at school with lesbian mothers. He is a star wars geek but a plastic light saber fight is about as violent as he'd get off the lacrosse field. (see, he's a collegiate athlete without a father. no problem)

Now again these are examples and by no means representative but I think the research that supports gender roles is a bunch of hooey - children need love and support and good moral examples, they need to be taught curiosity and respect. And boys can have father figures without having a father, just as girls can have mother figures without a mother. My younger sister is enrolled in a program called "aunts and uncles" or something where children of gay/lesbian couples are set up with single gay men and women (of a complimentary gender to their parents) to go to movies, lunch, hang out, do whatever. Now my sister's gay uncle is (stereotypically) more likely to take her to a broadway show than onto a sports field, but hey, she adores him and that's what matters. This man also fathered a baby child who is being raised by her two mothers, who have custody of the kid but involve him in the kid's life all the time.

There are all sorts of families. As Angela Harlem so aptly pointed out on page 2, what we are born into is our reality, and no kid who grew up in a loving family, whether with two dads, two moms, a mom and a dad, a mom and a grandmother, only a dad, etc... really questions their family or wishes it were otherwise.
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Old 12-04-2006, 10:50 PM   #57
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Do you read the New York Times Magazine? Because two years ago, it did a cover story on a girl who was born to and raised by lesbian parents. I found the feature fascinating and very informative, but it did raise a lot of questions for me, mainly about how having two parents of one sex affects a child. Now, I have nothing against homosexuals having children, but I admit I can't help but wonder a few things, (maybe because I'm into psychology) and I hope I don't offend you with my questions.

One thing I do wonder, if a child is raised by two parents who are of a different sex than the child (like a boy raised by two mothers, or a girl raised by two fathers), are they more likely to respect the opposite sex more or feel insecure around them?
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Old 12-04-2006, 11:38 PM   #58
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With apologies for interrupting...

I think it's really important to make a distinction between the kind of situation Varitek is describing--where you have a well-thought-out, cohesive, planned-in-advance and diverse support network for a boy and his two mothers to draw upon--and on the other hand, the far more common "fatherless son" scenario where due to divorce, failed or abusive relationships, or death (all of which are already traumatic in and of themselves), a mother who has nothing like that kind of carefully cultivated network is suddenly thrown into the role of having to be sole provider and sole caretaker all at once, while meanwhile scrambling to cobble together the best support system she can despite having very little time and energy to do that. That sort of situation imposes enormous added stresses on a parent, and it's not terribly surprising if it sometimes emotionally damages the children as well (daughters included--there are many ways to manifest emotional damage, criminal behavior being only one of them) or leaves serious mentoring-presence gaps. Obviously this doesn't by any means always happen--nor is the presence of a married mother and father any guarantee that it won't, for that matter--but to the extent that it does, I'd question the applicability of any conclusions drawn to these very different sorts of family situations and structures.

I think it would be wonderful if more families of ALL types had these kinds of networks in place from the get-go, but unfortunately those would be very hard to achieve in most communities nowadays. My own little brother and sister grew up almost entirely without a father, as ours died when they were 6 and 4 respectively and my mother never remarried, and I know both of them feel very strongly that the close-knit, neighborhood-based Jewish community they grew up in made an enormous difference in providing them with multiple homes to hang out in, plenty of always-available adults and children of both sexes they knew well and could turn to if they needed it, and just as importantly an extended friendship and support network for my mother which beneficially overlapped with theirs. That didn't fall from the sky, though--we were new to the area and didn't have many opportunities intially to make family friends, and there was definitely a lot of serendipity and nudging and overtures from kindly strangers involved. It would've been better if we'd already had that lined up from the beginning, but I'm so grateful for both my kid sibs and my mother that it materialized in the end.

I'm not sure if I'd ever be able to pull together something like that on my own if I found myself in an analogous situation where I live now, though we're working on it, and I'm certain our family would be better for it no matter what happens. It really is frighteningly risky to throw all your eggs into that vulnerable little two-person basket, when you think about it--having two adults you could theoretically "talk to about anything" is good, but having four or six or ten is even better. Just because you're a man doesn't mean your sons won't have serious issues with you as a role model and mentor, and just because you're a woman doesn't mean your daughters won't either. (How many of us in here are still working through the aftermath of longstanding poor relationships with a parent of the same sex? weary show of hands...) You really do have to weigh the benefits and temptations of that privacy (and I'm not knocking the benefits--yes, loving and responsible primary caretakers will always be crucial) against the benefits and maintenance involved in sharing some of that journey with others.
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Old 12-05-2006, 12:04 AM   #59
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You mean it does take a village to raise a child?
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Old 12-05-2006, 08:44 AM   #60
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Do you read the New York Times Magazine? Because two years ago, it did a cover story on a girl who was born to and raised by lesbian parents. I found the feature fascinating and very informative, but it did raise a lot of questions for me, mainly about how having two parents of one sex affects a child. Now, I have nothing against homosexuals having children, but I admit I can't help but wonder a few things, (maybe because I'm into psychology) and I hope I don't offend you with my questions.

One thing I do wonder, if a child is raised by two parents who are of a different sex than the child (like a boy raised by two mothers, or a girl raised by two fathers), are they more likely to respect the opposite sex more or feel insecure around them?
I think my parents told me I should read that article a few years ago, though I don't think I ever did. You know how it is.

I can't really answre that question, because I was raised by parents of the same sex. But I've responded to others by discussing several male friends who were raised by lesbians.
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