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Old 07-01-2010, 10:54 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Related in that the usual crowd of victimology-peddlers, grievance-mongers, ACLU lawyers and community organizers (aka, liberals) now barking so loud about Arizona 1070 reflexively called the Indiana law fascist, racist and discriminatory as well.

Hang in there Arizona. When the Blame America Corps is marching against you it can only mean you're doing the right thing.
"You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
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Old 07-01-2010, 11:19 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Related in that the usual crowd of victimology-peddlers, grievance-mongers, ACLU lawyers and community organizers (aka, liberals) now barking so loud about Arizona 1070 reflexively called the Indiana law fascist, racist and discriminatory as well.
Arizona's law attempts to mirror the unenforced federal law, right?

Maybe the Holder regime should sue themselves
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Old 07-01-2010, 11:36 PM   #483
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Arizona's law attempts to mirror the unenforced federal law, right?
So is this the reason for the law?

I keep hearing this.

But if this is indeed true, then you have to ask yourself why? Why make it a law? If it mirrors what's there, what's the point of making a whole other law to just restate what's there? Why not just a memo?

Does restating it all of a sudden make Arizona police want to do something about immigration? Why were they doing anything before?

Gosh, this couldn't just be a political move to attract the tea bag vote could it?

I know you won't answer this, and I know INDY and <> have tried but just talked around in rhetoric, but I really wish someone would answer it.
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Old 07-02-2010, 12:47 AM   #484
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Hang in there Arizona. When the Blame America Corps is marching against you it can only mean you're doing the right thing.
You've GOT to be kidding me. Please tell me you're joking with this.

Angela
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Old 07-02-2010, 01:15 PM   #485
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You've GOT to be kidding me. Please tell me you're joking with this.

Angela
Well, pardon my usual flair, but "You've GOT to be kidding" is exactly what most Americans think when common sense efforts to insure the integrity of our borders and elections are met with charges of racism and discrimination.

I would hope we could agree that secure borders and elections free of fraud are important in a free society.
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Old 07-02-2010, 01:30 PM   #486
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This article in today's LA Times has something for everyone.

Arizona immigration law: Police guidelines underscore law's complexities - latimes.com

For those who dislike the new law, there's this:
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The law's various requirements have baffled many lawyers, and the training materials show that even the state government is not certain what some provisions require.

For example, the law requires that all people arrested be held until the federal government verifies their immigration status. But the video says it's unclear whether this applies to arrests for any offense or just those involving possible illegal immigrants.

Additionally, the law allows any legal resident of Arizona to sue if a local agency has a "policy" against enforcing federal immigration laws, but the video warns that no one knows what that means.
A poorly written, vague law that may be unenforceable.

And for those who think every state should have this going on:
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Attorney Beverly Ginn warns officers not to use race "at all" in forming a suspicion about someone's immigration status. The first indication should be whether, when stopped for possibly violating another law, a person can provide proper identification.

Other possible factors include whether people flee from police, are traveling in an overcrowded vehicle, dress in a suspicious manner — such as in layers that may indicate they have traveled through the desert — or have difficulty communicating in English. The latter cannot be the sole reason for suspicion.

The training DVD also notes that officers have wide discretion on whether to check someone's status. The law only mandates officers make the inquiry if practical.

Ginn says officers may conclude that their heavy workloads and large number of outstanding calls for help make an inquiry impossible. They also should not ask witnesses or crime victims about their status.

Finally, the video stresses that the law does not require legal residents to carry papers in Arizona, even though it makes it a misdemeanor for illegal immigrants to lack those documents. Much of the criticism of the law has centered on the image of Arizona police demanding papers from people they encounter.

"No officer should ever say, 'Show me your papers,' " Mann [head of the Arizona Peace Officer Standards and Training Board] says. "That's just rude."
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Old 07-02-2010, 01:31 PM   #487
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I would hope we could agree that secure borders and elections free of fraud are important in a free society.
You would think, huh.

Wait, should we ask Al Gore about that second one?
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Old 07-02-2010, 01:46 PM   #488
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Well, pardon my usual flair, but "You've GOT to be kidding" is exactly what most Americans think when common sense efforts to insure the integrity of our borders and elections are met with charges of racism and discrimination.
But you can't honestly believe this is the case. Wanting to secure the borders does not make one racist, the reason for, and the means to which you do so can make you a racist.

But I think you're bright enough to understand that.
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Old 07-02-2010, 01:57 PM   #489
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Well, pardon my usual flair, but "You've GOT to be kidding" is exactly what most Americans think when common sense efforts to insure the integrity of our borders and elections are met with charges of racism and discrimination.
No, what bothered me was the insinuation that everyone who's against this law is part of some "Blame America First" group-you don't like people assuming things about your side, probably best not to do it to others, eh? That and the idea that Arizona's going about this the right way. You really think this is a good idea?

Of course wanting a secure border doesn't automatically make somebody a racist. I want our borders to be safe and secure as much as the next person, and anyone who thinks that simply wanting a safe border automatically means you're racist is incredibly simplistic and stupid. But like BVS said, some of the means people use to go about doing that can be seen as racist, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

And I'm sorry, but there IS some racism inherent in this Arizona law (again, we have similar problems on the northern end of our borders and nobody's calling for a fence or demanding "Papers, please!" THERE. Nah, seems in some people's eyes only Mexicans are capable of being illegal immigrants. Not white people. Nope). Some of the "secure the border" folks ARE racist. Some of them don't want immigrants here at all. This law affects all sorts of people negatively, not just illegals. There are plenty of fair, legitimate ways to deal with illegal immigration and keeping the borders safe. This isn't one of those ways.

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I would hope we could agree that secure borders and elections free of fraud are important in a free society.
That you will get no argument from me on.

Angela
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Old 07-02-2010, 10:55 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Well, pardon my usual flair, but "You've GOT to be kidding" is exactly what most Americans think when common sense efforts to insure the integrity of our borders and elections are met with charges of racism and discrimination.

I would hope we could agree that secure borders and elections free of fraud are important in a free society.
What does this law do other than encourage racial profiling? Does it serve any other purpose? I'm curious. Everything I've read about it makes me think it's just trying to free up racial profiling.
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Old 07-05-2010, 12:26 AM   #491
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What does this law do other than encourage racial profiling? Does it serve any other purpose? I'm curious. Everything I've read about it makes me think it's just trying to free up racial profiling.
Well not so much that.

The law in and of itself changes nothing when it comes to the original police encounter- they still need a traffic violation or a suspicious dude walking on the street. In other words, you're doing 55 in a 40 or loitering in a high drug area to get stopped in the 1st place.

The only thing the law changes is where the cops check on your status, its no through a federal database, but thats quite technical. Bottom line, they can find out now, they will still be able to find out.

But you are not entirely wrong.

There are most certainly some racial elements to the quite political reason for the passage of this law. The right wing base in this country does have a significant racist/nativist element to it, that has always been true. This is who people like Brewer and Palin play to, its their target audience.

This is why BVS' question that he has kept asking throughout this thread has not gotten anything resembling an intelligent answer. The motivation is clearly political only- the last time this was a big issue was the 2006 election season- and since then, a good amount of illegals have gone home. 2 million less than in 2006 by most counts. So why the media blitz to make this look like a brand new problem that developed yesterday?

As Moonlit Angel said, there are ways to secure the border, punish illegals, put them in line behind the rest of us and get the problem under control.

Can they break through in this climate where the Republican Party has taken their scorched earth play to the extreme base strategy further than any party in the history of America?

Say what you want about the far from perfect Democrats, but they are not playing to the extreme left. There was no single payer, no knee jerk pull outs in Afghanistan, no go too far and control the entire economy financial regulatory reform(and no bailouts dont cout, they are not chosen Democratic or Republican policies), etc. And the Democrats could have done ALOT MORE with 58-60 Senators than they did. Pelosi is personally probably a lot more liberal than the agenda she has set for the house, but she realizes she is leading a caucus that comes from all over the spectrum and represents all kinds of districts. Anyone seen a Democrat play to the gun control lobby and push a handgun ban? Quite the opposite, over 100 Congressional Democrats signed a supreme court brief in support of the Chicago ban being overturned. How about playing to the environmental lobby with a carbon tax? Not there.

The few moderates left in the Republican Party have no influence within the caucus, their influence comes from the possibility that they will swing and break a fillibuster. They are not watched because they have Mitch McConnel and John Boehner's ears.
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Old 07-05-2010, 06:33 PM   #492
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INDIANAPOLIS — Starting today, gray hair or wrinkles are no longer enough to prove you're old enough to buy a six-pack of beer.

Because of a new state law, bartenders and liquor store clerks must now ask everyone, regardless of age, to see photo identification.
Photo IDs to vote. Photo IDs to open a bank account or board a plane. And now photo IDs to buy alcohol regardless of age.

Gee, Indiana is turning into a regular police state. You can't even take your kid out for ice cream without being harassed around here.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:53 PM   #493
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Photo IDs to vote. Photo IDs to open a bank account or board a plane. And now photo IDs to buy alcohol regardless of age.

Gee, Indiana is turning into a regular police state. You can't even take your kid out for ice cream without being harassed around here.
I hear you. Just say no to Big Government, right?
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Old 07-05-2010, 10:22 PM   #494
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You can't even take your kid out for ice cream without being detained and waterboarded around here.

fixed that for ya.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:08 AM   #495
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So is this the reason for the law?

I keep hearing this.

But if this is indeed true, then you have to ask yourself why? Why make it a law? If it mirrors what's there, what's the point of making a whole other law to just restate what's there? Why not just a memo?

Does restating it all of a sudden make Arizona police want to do something about immigration? Why were they doing anything before?

Gosh, this couldn't just be a political move to attract the tea bag vote could it?

I know you won't answer this, and I know INDY and <> have tried but just talked around in rhetoric, but I really wish someone would answer it.
ok ill try.

yes, it could be a political move to get "tea bag votes". the same way the democrats want "immigration reform" to get the "minority vote."

the truth is when it boils down to it, both parties really dont give a shit about illegal immgrants or what the people think about it. they are only interested in getting votes and making themselves and their big business and banker friends richer. they really dont give a fuck about you or the illegal immigrant next door. as long as you keep PRODUCING.
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