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Old 06-11-2010, 04:47 PM   #436
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on a related note:

FOXNews.com - Holder Announces FBI Probe of Border Patrol After Shooting of Mexican Boy

just curious what the opinions are around here regarding this sort of thing (although i can probably guess ), and im not talking about the fact that he was 15, but in general. i saw a video of a BP agent getting rocks thrown at him and the vehicles, a mexican about 15 feet away rearing back to throw a rock at either him or the vehicle (you cant really tell from the video) and the agent shoots him with his M4 and he drops like a rock. at what point is deadly force justified (if at all?). and if agents or officers are being shot at or otherwise from across the border, is it ok to shoot back into mexico?
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:05 PM   #437
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I'm so confused what does this have to do with BP?

Is deadly force justified for a rock? What kind of question is that? That should be a no brainer.

If agents are being shot at, then yes it's justifiable to shoot back.
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:27 PM   #438
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I'm so confused what does this have to do with BP?
Border Patrol, not the other BP.
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:37 PM   #439
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Friday brain mush

I was like, man they must have a hell of a throwing arm...
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:38 PM   #440
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I'm so confused what does this have to do with BP?

Is deadly force justified for a rock? What kind of question is that? That should be a no brainer.


you dont think getting hit in the head with a rock could be deadly? Im not BP, but i sometimes patrol the island and if i had a bunch of people chucking rocks at me, you bet your ass id more than likely be shooting back.

and technically no, policy says you shouldnt shoot into mexico, even if you're being shot at.
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:39 PM   #441
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I got confused by that for a moment, too .

Anyway, I'm all for an investigation, if for no other reason than to get the exact facts surrounding what happened there. I do agree that if you're getting pelted with rocks regardless of the situation, you don't automatically need to pull out your massive guns and start shooting away. Maybe call in someone to help calm the people throwing rocks down ('cause they shouldn't do that, either, as rocks can hurt people), and if they don't calm down, then go through whatever the next step is. That shooting likely is only going to make things worse.

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Old 06-11-2010, 05:49 PM   #442
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you dont think getting hit in the head with a rock could be deadly? Im not BP, but i sometimes patrol the island and if i had a bunch of people chucking rocks at me, you bet your ass id more than likely be shooting back.
Wear a helmet. I'm pretty sure most 15 year olds would run after a warning shot. If you can't outrun or shield yourself from a rock maybe you need to change careers.


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and technically no, policy says you shouldnt shoot into mexico, even if you're being shot at.
I'm well aware of policy, but I believe if an investigation found that you were fired upon first they would hopefully find it justifiable.
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Old 06-11-2010, 06:14 PM   #443
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Wear a helmet. I'm pretty sure most 15 year olds would run after a warning shot. If you can't outrun or shield yourself from a rock maybe you need to change careers.


first, we arent issued helmets, and i doubt most BP agents would want to wear a helmet out in the middle of the desert. Second, i wasnt just talking only about the 15 yo, ive seen and read of numerous rock throwing incidents at the border, most of which end badly for the agents and some end worse for the throwers. And third, that's a helluva judgement to make that i need to change my career because of how i would act in a situation where my life is at stake. Rocks could kill or cause serious bodily harm especially with multiple attackers which most of these situations are, and deadly force IS justified. And the fact that agents should "run away" from such an attack is ridiculous to me.
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Old 06-11-2010, 06:20 PM   #444
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first, we arent issued helmets, and i doubt most BP agents would want to wear a helmet out in the middle of the desert. Second, i wasnt just talking only about the 15 yo, ive seen and read of numerous rock throwing incidents at the border, most of which end badly for the agents and some end worse for the throwers. And third, that's a helluva judgement to make that i need to change my career because of how i would act in a situation where my life is at stake. Rocks could kill or cause serious bodily harm especially with multiple attackers which most of these situations are, and deadly force IS justified. And the fact that agents should "run away" from such an attack is ridiculous to me.
You find running from a rock ridiculous? Not manly enough? Saving a fifteen year old's life not worth it?

Soldiers wear helmets in the desert.

How many have died from these rock attacks?
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Old 06-12-2010, 10:27 AM   #445
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You find running from a rock ridiculous? Not manly enough? Saving a fifteen year old's life not worth it?

Soldiers wear helmets in the desert.

How many have died from these rock attacks?
sure you can try to dodge the rocks, as long as there arent a bunch of people throwing them. but im not going to stand there and dodge rocks all day while shaking my fist at them in between throws. yeah i do find "running away" from a situation like that ridiculous. so im on patrol and a group of people start hurling rocks at me im just supposed to run away? what if they chase me? what if there is nothing to hide behind? what if backup is 20 minutes away? what if the rock hits me in the head and knocks me out and they come and take my gun and shoot me or someone else? am i really supposed to take those chances in a potentially deadly situation? and do you really want the people protecting the country to "run away" from a situation instead of dealing with it.

as for the 15 y/o aspect of it, that kid wasnt the most law-abiding person ever, to say the least. a 15 y/o could kill you just as easily as a 25 y/o, rock or otherwise.

as for the helmets, maybe you should write your congressman so they will issue them to us

i dont know how many. all i know is you try throwing rocks at mexico's federales and they'll put so many holes in you they wouldnt be able to count them all. and they wouldnt even think about it. people bitch about how the US law enforcement treats people when if you look at some other countries, we are one of the most generous. i never hear any outcry over that.
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Old 06-12-2010, 01:08 PM   #446
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sure you can try to dodge the rocks, as long as there arent a bunch of people throwing them. but im not going to stand there and dodge rocks all day while shaking my fist at them in between throws. yeah i do find "running away" from a situation like that ridiculous. so im on patrol and a group of people start hurling rocks at me im just supposed to run away? what if they chase me? what if there is nothing to hide behind? what if backup is 20 minutes away? what if the rock hits me in the head and knocks me out and they come and take my gun and shoot me or someone else? am i really supposed to take those chances in a potentially deadly situation? and do you really want the people protecting the country to "run away" from a situation instead of dealing with it.
And what if you dodged the first one and fired a warning shot and it stopped?

If by dealing with it you mean killing people, then no. My whole point is that there had to be a better way to deal with the situation. A kill shot should be the very last response.

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as for the 15 y/o aspect of it, that kid wasnt the most law-abiding person ever, to say the least. a 15 y/o could kill you just as easily as a 25 y/o, rock or otherwise.
I don't care if he was "law abiding" or not, it was not the right response.

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i dont know how many. all i know is you try throwing rocks at mexico's federales and they'll put so many holes in you they wouldnt be able to count them all. and they wouldnt even think about it. people bitch about how the US law enforcement treats people when if you look at some other countries, we are one of the most generous. i never hear any outcry over that.
I hate this argument, people use this to justify torture all the time, it's an elementary school line of defense.
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Old 06-12-2010, 01:57 PM   #447
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And what if you dodged the first one and fired a warning shot and it stopped?
this isnt tv, we dont fire warning shots, policy doesnt allow it. you only fire your weapon at something you intend to shoot. the only people authorized to use warning shots are marine interdiction agents. they are allowed to fire warning shots before they shoot the motor of a boat during a chase.

what if the 1st one hits me in the temple? what if it doesnt stop? are you willing to play the what if game when you life is potentially at stake?

what would you have done then? you are out in the middle of the desert doing a foot patrol, maybe alone, and you come across a group and they start throwing rocks at you. you cant tell how old they are, who they are, or what their intentions are. you cant fire warning shots, backup is 20 minutes away, and your vehicle is 100 yards away. what do you do?
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Old 06-12-2010, 02:07 PM   #448
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we dont fire warning shots, policy doesnt allow it. you only fire your weapon at something you intend to shoot. the only people authorized to use warning shots are marine interdiction agents. they are allowed to fire warning shots before they shoot the motor of a boat during a chase.

what if the 1st one hits me in the temple? what if it doesnt stop? are you willing to play the what if game when you life is potentially at stake?
So policy says to kill anyone who throws something at you?

We can play the "what if" game all day long, it comes down to assesment and from the small amount of information we have I think he assessed the situation wrong. Why if there was a group throwing rocks was just one 15 year old killed? Did he miss the others?
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Old 06-12-2010, 02:44 PM   #449
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So policy says to kill anyone who throws something at you?

We can play the "what if" game all day long, it comes down to assesment and from the small amount of information we have I think he assessed the situation wrong. Why if there was a group throwing rocks was just one 15 year old killed? Did he miss the others?

well not just anything. if someone threw a cup or shot a rubber band at me i probably wouldnt shoot them. dont you agree that rocks, escpecially thrown by a group, could cause serious bodily harm or death? if so then deadly force is justified. obviously if there were 3 agents and 1 teenager throwing, i doubt you would need to blow him away. but an agent by himself, or even 2, being pelted with rocks from a group?

i find it hard to believe that it was 1 lone 15 y/o in the middle of the desert throwing the rocks. it had to be a group. i bet once the kid was shot the others shit their pants and ran their asses off, and the agents obviously arent going to shoot someone running away.
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Old 06-12-2010, 03:24 PM   #450
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i bet once the kid was shot the others shit their pants and ran their asses off, and the agents obviously arent going to shoot someone running away.
Yep, too bad a warning shot wasn't policy, someone would still be alive today.
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