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Old 05-16-2010, 05:03 PM   #376
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immigrants are often willing to do jobs that others won't do
So it's good that they're being exploited?
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Old 05-16-2010, 05:24 PM   #377
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So it's good that they're being exploited?

i knew this was coming.

it's good in that immigrants -- from the Irish in the 19th century to the Mexicans of the 21st -- have always been willing to start at the very bottom and slowly work their way to the top. it's also good that many highly educated South Asian Indians went to Silicon Valley. it doesn't matter where one finds oneself, what matters is the energy, ambition, and cheerfulness that i admire.

this is true of any economically advanced society. at the international school i once worked at, in Brussels, there were accountants from the Philippines who were janitors in the elementary school. people with medical training who drove cabs. because it was better than where they came from.
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Old 05-16-2010, 05:49 PM   #378
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because it was better than where they came from.

We have a winner. This is it exactly.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:03 PM   #379
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i knew this was coming.

it's good in that immigrants -- from the Irish in the 19th century to the Mexicans of the 21st -- have always been willing to start at the very bottom and slowly work their way to the top. it's also good that many highly educated South Asian Indians went to Silicon Valley. it doesn't matter where one finds oneself, what matters is the energy, ambition, and cheerfulness that i admire.

this is true of any economically advanced society. at the international school i once worked at, in Brussels, there were accountants from the Philippines who were janitors in the elementary school. people with medical training who drove cabs. because it was better than where they came from.
Ah, but this a value judgment, and one promoted as established fact by neo-liberalism. Those who buy into this philosophy, if they hail from what we patronisingly call 'developing' countries, are more likely to emigrate in the first place. Obviously they will say they prefer living in the US or Brussels or wherever to the country they left behind - by virtue of the fact that they choose to leave it!

What's interesting to me is that here is a lot of research that indicates that there is no link between economic prosperity and happiness. Societies that are poor are quite often happier than societies that are rich.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:20 PM   #380
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Ah, but this a value judgment, and one promoted as established fact by neo-liberalism. Those who buy into this philosophy, if they hail from what we patronisingly call 'developing' countries, are more likely to emigrate in the first place. Obviously they will say they prefer living in the US or Brussels or wherever to the country they left behind - by virtue of the fact that they choose to leave it!

What's interesting to me is that here is a lot of research that indicates that there is no link between economic prosperity and happiness. Societies that are poor are quite often happier than societies that are rich.


when i was a swim coach, i had some kids who were talented but didn't care, and some kids who weren't talented but did care.

give me the kids who want to be there.

and give me a multicultural, hardworking, upbeat society in the immediate suburbs of almost any city in the US filled with immigrants from (and this is just Arlington/Fairfax outside of DC) El Salvador, Korea, Vietnam, and Ethiopia rather than the snowblindness of the exurbs. or, where i work, i can walk out into the main shopping plaza area and in what was once a Jewish-then-black-now-immigrant suburb is a teeming hub of pretty much everyone, where there is no majority.

while i fully agree that "developing" nations is a bit of a patronizing word, and i do agree that a judgment is implied at least when it comes to culture -- though we've had people in this thread boldly assert the superiority of American culture to all others and especially to Mexican culture -- i don't think it's at all patronizing to say that there is greater economic opportunity in Los Angeles than there is in Tijuana, or in El Paso than in Juarez.

that seems like pretty basic fact, no value judgment implied.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:23 PM   #381
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when i was a swim coach, i had some kids who were talented but didn't care, and some kids who weren't talented but did care.

give me the kids who want to be there.

and give me a multicultural, hardworking, upbeat society in the immediate suburbs of almost any city in the US filled with immigrants from (and this is just Arlington/Fairfax outside of DC) El Salvador, Korea, Vietnam, and Ethiopia rather than the snowblindness of the exurbs. or, where i work, i can walk out into the main shopping plaza area and in what was once a Jewish-then-black-now-immigrant suburb is a teeming hub of pretty much everyone, where there is no majority.

while i fully agree that "developing" nations is a bit of a patronizing word, and i do agree that a judgment is implied at least when it comes to culture -- though we've had people in this thread boldly assert the superiority of American culture to all others and especially to Mexican culture -- i don't think it's at all patronizing to say that there is greater economic opportunity in Los Angeles than there is in Tijuana, or in El Paso than in Juarez.

that seems like pretty basic fact, no value judgment implied.
I think the US in general does a much better job of integrating immigrants than Europe.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:38 PM   #382
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I think the US in general does a much better job of integrating immigrants than Europe.


it is our history, certainly the Irish are, perhaps, the greatest immigrant success story for the US. what drives me bonkers are notions of "real" americans, and nativism -- which is a natural byproduct of a country defined by immigration -- because, to me, that is anti-American. it's never perfect, always messy, but it's vital to national identity.

European immigration is quite fascinating, because across the pond you have a greater, more organic sense of what it means to be French, British, Italian, etc. watching these nations of blood-and-soil adapt to 21st century global realities is fascinating, but would you agree that immigration has made cities like London and Paris more vital, more innovative, more energetic? what sometimes shocks Americans when they go to London is how amazingly diverse it is -- we're all expecting Beefeaters and Hugh Grant. isn't this the source of London's cultural strength? that, at least in London, immigrants do well? they bring their music, their food, their communities and make the city that much more interesting and inspiring?
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:45 PM   #383
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it is our history, certainly the Irish are, perhaps, the greatest immigrant success story for the US. what drives me bonkers are notions of "real" americans, and nativism -- which is a natural byproduct of a country defined by immigration -- because, to me, that is anti-American. it's never perfect, always messy, but it's vital to national identity.

European immigration is quite fascinating, because across the pond you have a greater, more organic sense of what it means to be French, British, Italian, etc. watching these nations of blood-and-soil adapt to 21st century global realities is fascinating, but would you agree that immigration has made cities like London and Paris more vital, more innovative, more energetic? what sometimes shocks Americans when they go to London is how amazingly diverse it is -- we're all expecting Beefeaters and Hugh Grant. isn't this the source of London's cultural strength? that, at least in London, immigrants do well? they bring their music, their food, their communities and make the city that much more interesting and inspiring?
Actually I was going add to my post that London is one of the few success stories regarding immigration in Europe. However I feel that it is not typical of the rest Europe, or for that matter the rest of the UK.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:59 PM   #384
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Actually I was going add to my post that London is one of the few success stories regarding immigration in Europe. However I feel that it is not typical of the rest Europe, or for that matter the rest of the UK.


tell me more about European/UK immigration? and Irish immigration? what are the successes, the failures?
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:11 PM   #385
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tell me more about European/UK immigration? and Irish immigration? what are the successes, the failures?
I am probably the wrong person to ask as, being a R.W. bigot (joke) I am not a fan of large scale immigration for ideological reasons.

I don't think the experience in Ireland is that bad overall. I think there are countries in Europe that have managed immigration worse, and a few, but not many, that have managed it better.

I will admit to enjoying the energy and mix of cultures of London every time I visit (I remember walking into a Irish bar one time and at one table there was a bunch of lads in Gaelic football jerseys, at the next an Orthodox Jew in full regalia sat nursing his pint) - not sure if I'd want to live there though.

The failures? Frankly, France, Austria and Denmark, strike me as examples not to follow, for different reasons.
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:39 PM   #386
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Sorry to intrude, but I have a question:

In the OP, Irvine's quoted text said that suspicious people will have to provide a proof of citizenship, and it had a brief list of documents to include a driver's license.

I thought that a driver's license wasn't necessarily proof of citizenship? Does this bill then equate a driver's license with a passport? Aren't there immigrants who have driver's licenses?

I'm kinda dumb, and haven't read much outside of medical texts as of late. So go easy on me.
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:44 PM   #387
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The failures? Frankly, France, Austria and Denmark, strike me as examples not to follow, for different reasons.
I lived in one of those as a child before my parents realized that our opportunities would always be limited and off we went to Canada. Which, in my mind (and I have lived/worked in the US) is the best place on earth for immigrants of all shapes and colours. Particularly southern Ontario.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:00 PM   #388
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Sorry to intrude, but I have a question:

In the OP, Irvine's quoted text said that suspicious people will have to provide a proof of citizenship, and it had a brief list of documents to include a driver's license.

I thought that a driver's license wasn't necessarily proof of citizenship? Does this bill then equate a driver's license with a passport? Aren't there immigrants who have driver's licenses?

I'm kinda dumb, and haven't read much outside of medical texts as of late. So go easy on me.
The law says that licenses from states that require "proof of legal residency" for driver's licenses are acceptable. As far as I could tell, that's all but five states. Washington isn't one of those, so, in theory, if you were pulled over and the cop wanted to fuck with you and asked for legal papers for your citizenship status, and all you had was a Washington state DL, you'd get hauled into the pokey until you could cough up a birth certificate.
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:21 AM   #389
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What's interesting to me is that here is a lot of research that indicates that there is no link between economic prosperity and happiness.
You might want to consider that current research shows very tight links between economic prosperity and diversity in "open" societies.
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:39 PM   #390
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YouTube - Miss Oklahoma USA Supports Arizona Law: "I'm A Huge Believer In States' Rights"

I politically incorrect beauty queens.
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