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Old 05-01-2010, 04:00 PM   #271
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Three words. Read my post.

I said illegal aliens can't get benefits.

Anchor babies, whether you like it or not, are factually not illegal aliens.
How Clintonesque of you. And in that vein Medicaid is a state, not federal, entitlement right?
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:16 PM   #272
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How Clintonesque of you. And in that vein Medicaid is a state, not federal, entitlement right?
Please explain the Clinton analogy!

Not that I'd mind being accused of emulating a fiscal conservative, budget balancing, welfare reforming, debt reducing and opportunity promoting Democrat........

If you are trying to say I am "slick" as in "it depends on what the meaning of is is." then I am not following you.

I am not being evasive or getting you on a technicality.

Anchor babies are factually not illegal immigrants.

They are citizens. They were born here. If you do not like it, then talk to Evan Bayh or Dick Lugar or Brad Ellsworth or Mitch Daniels. See if they will introduce a bill to change the long standing citizenship criteria to match yours. Its worth a try.

But don't say that a straightforward, factual statement is somehow me being slick Willie.

What point are you trying to make with Medicaid?

It is of course, as you know, a joint federal/state program.

Just as illegals can not get federal benefits, I know of no state that will give them benefits. Especially since it would be 100% out of their own pockets with no help from the feds....

If they are drawing benefits, they are doing so fraudulently and illegally, which means that no Democrat or Republican is advocating it as a policy.

So it shouldn't be part of a political disagreement or used to say "Obama is giving them hand outs."
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:22 PM   #273
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You know what's funny? That you automatically assumed that I'm against the so-called "liberal" media. Just because I'm not the biggest fan of illegal immigration does not make me a staunch conservative.
But you're in FYM, Pearl!!

Most liberals here(not me, though I am a proud Democrat) insist on 100% ideological purity. If not that, then you are a staunch conservative, even though they've never met you!

I have got roughed up pretty good by my fellow liberals for daring to support charter schools and question teachers' unions, for saying that the health care bill passed was better than single payer, the list goes on!
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:10 PM   #274
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So, you're OK with companies paying illegals below the minimum wage? You're OK with companies exploiting them?
Start a vegetable garden and find a nice tent, Pearl.

Because enforcing our laws will put groceries and houses out of your price range.
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:13 PM   #275
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Because enforcing our laws will put groceries and houses out of your price range.
No, but apparently it will end murder and Arizona's problem of having too many Latinos... Right?

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Old 05-01-2010, 06:07 PM   #276
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i'm still giggling to myself about coolian's point -- the people who insist that America is better than everyone else at everything everyone else has ever done at any time in the history of the entire world, that we're an exceptional place, the city shining on the hill, the promised land, the crowning accomplishment of human history (even when such things are patently untrue!) are the most disturbed when poor people living in not-America try to come here by any means necessary from poor countries where their relatives are being murdered by people who sell drugs to Americans. and not to mention according the government authoritarian powers over search and seizure (not tom ention torture and foreign imperialism), but turning around and screaming about, god forbid, taxes and governments actually doing things like helping poor people -- the "loser's mortgages," remember that from last year? tell me, just what is government tyranny anyway? and, ironically, who benefits most from THE GOVERNMENT??? those same white senior citizens suckling at the teat of MEDICAID AND SOCIAL SECURITY!!!!! my god, the real leaches are OLD PEOPLE, not young immigrants sleeping 6 to a room and eager to send their children to fucking kindergarten who are thankful to spend the day cleaning your house for $100. it makes dramatically more sense to try to improve the living standards of native-born Americans by improving public services via taxes than it does to try to improve the living standards of native-born Americans through trying to prevent people from moving to the United States. no one argues that we are a nation of laws. that we have borders. and that laws need to be enforced. but to view immigration -- legal or illegal -- as one of the greatest problems facing the country today is preposterous. we're a profoundly better, more interesting place when we have a continual influx of new blood. and you know what's at the center of this? CAPITALISM! this is the market at it's finest! this is America as it was always meant to be -- endlessly inventive, impossible to generalize about, and confounding to stereotypes and expectations. this land is your land, and this land is my land.

anyway.

i fuckin' love immigrants. i really do. from anywhere and everywhere. we spent the day running errands in traffic-clogged Northern Virginia today. i love driving past Pho restaurants and Salvadorean restaurants and Peruvian chicken and Korean BBQ and Eritrean restaurants and New Zealand diners and Chinese buffets packed with Mexicans and the incredible, diverse selection of vegetables at Grand Mart or (better) Super H Mart. you can't walk through a mall in Northern Virginia and realize that there is no majority, you're all minorities. and when it comes to service sector jobs, give me a hard-working immigrant with limited English who cares rather than a bored teenager and his stupid shag haircut. it's messy, and crowded, and hot today, but it's so vibrantly alive, and so much closer to what this country has always been about than heading out further west into the well-kept but utterly bland exurbs where SUV's roam across wide roads, stopping at Quiznos before pulling up to a McMansion so the obese native born Americans can roll on our and heat up some Hot Pockets before sitting down to watch fucking "Paul Blart Mall Cop" on their plasma TVs.

what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago. we now live in a country where women are the majority in the work force, where gays can get married, where many faiths are as valued as Christianity, where we are all racial and cultural minorities, and where Spanish is a perfectly acceptable lingua franca in certain areas.

and we have a half-black president.
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Old 05-01-2010, 06:10 PM   #277
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what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago.
I believe there is a whole bunch o' truth in that statement.
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Old 05-01-2010, 06:43 PM   #278
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what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago.
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what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago.
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what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago.
Yessir!!!
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:21 PM   #279
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i fuckin' love immigrants. i really do. from anywhere and everywhere. we spent the day running errands in traffic-clogged Northern Virginia today. i love driving past Pho restaurants and Salvadorean restaurants and Peruvian chicken and Korean BBQ and Eritrean restaurants and New Zealand diners and Chinese buffets packed with Mexicans and the incredible, diverse selection of vegetables at Grand Mart or (better) Super H Mart. you can't walk through a mall in Northern Virginia and realize that there is no majority, you're all minorities. and when it comes to service sector jobs, give me a hard-working immigrant with limited English who cares rather than a bored teenager and his stupid shag haircut. it's messy, and crowded, and hot today, but it's so vibrantly alive, and so much closer to what this country has always been about than heading out further west into the well-kept but utterly bland exurbs where SUV's roam across wide roads, stopping at Quiznos before pulling up to a McMansion so the obese native born Americans can roll on our and heat up some Hot Pockets before sitting down to watch fucking "Paul Blart Mall Cop" on their plasma TVs.

what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago. we now live in a country where women are the majority in the work force, where gays can get married, where many faiths are as valued as Christianity, where we are all racial and cultural minorities, and where Spanish is a perfectly acceptable lingua franca in certain areas.

and we have a half-black president.
Irvine, I like ethnic restaurants too.

We are a nation of laws, not restaurants.

Your post has nothing to do with federal law or Arizona law.
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:22 PM   #280
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Start a vegetable garden and find a nice tent, Pearl.

Because enforcing our laws will put groceries and houses out of your price range.
I don't think BVS was going that far.

I think he was merely pointing out that the low cost of labor from illegals does, in many industries, contribute to a downward effect on overall wages, which shows up in prices. And when the Tea Party types have to pay more for anything... well, that is a socialist conspiracy.

That being said, I think the economy could absorb the upward pressure on prices that will come when illegals go through the process and are made legal without too much of an impact on consumer prices. Productivity gains from higher wages and better technology should keep us from paying say, $1 more for each tomato.

This is minimal impact only reinforced by the post that bigjohn copied here saying that there are no jobs Americans will not do.

This is actually quite true.

It may come as a surprise to some, myself included when I first heard it, but there is no industry in this country, food service, day labor, you name it, even the ones that have the highest percentage of immigrants, whose majority is comprised of immigrants.

I will find the statistics, but the most "immigrant dominated" industry, if I recall correctly, still employs about 58% Americans.

So most workers in all industries are covered by the labor laws of the US, including minimum wage, payroll taxes, etc, etc.

So I don't see any kind of inflationary shock when the illegal problem is tackled, which will take time and be a gradual process. Businesses will have time to prepare.

A little bit of upward pressure? Sure, but nothing that will not be counterbalanced, the market is indeed a beautiful thing.
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:27 PM   #281
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So I don't see any kind of inflationary shock when the illegal problem is tackled, which will take time and be a gradual process. Businesses will have time to prepare.

A little bit of upward pressure? Sure, but nothing that will not be counterbalanced, the market is indeed a beautiful thing.
I'm with you
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:41 PM   #282
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Please explain the Clinton analogy!

If you are trying to say I am "slick" as in "it depends on what the meaning of is is." then I am not following you.
Even you must acknowledge that a newborn is not going to live alone or cash the Medicaid check. The mother at least will be given housing support and food stamps. Most states don't even ask for immigration status in housing. That's why our president's illegally in the country aunt came to be living in public housing in Boston during the campaign.
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Just as illegals can not get federal benefits, I know of no state that will give them benefits. Especially since it would be 100% out of their own pockets with no help from the feds....
If they are drawing benefits, they are doing so fraudulently and illegally, which means that no Democrat or Republican is advocating it as a policy.
Really, California tried to do just that. Prevent illegals from receiving state benefits and the provision was struck down as "unconstitutional."

Quote:
Federal Court Voids California Bar on Benefits for Illegal Immigrants

The Washington Post | November 15, 1997 | William Booth

A federal judge today struck down core provisions of California's Proposition 187, the controversial ballot initiative to end all social services and other benefits to illegal immigrants, saying the state's authority on the matter was superseded by federal legislation enacted last year.
U.S. District Judge Mariana R. Pfaelzer concluded that the initiative, overwhelmingly adopted by voters in November 1994, was unconstitutional and that the federal government, not the states, had responsibility for setting policy on immigrant benefits.
So... if illegals can receive no benefits then what prompted prop 187? And if the law never took effect because of the courts then wasn't the status quo maintained?
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:49 PM   #283
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New Zealand diners
say what?
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Old 05-01-2010, 09:11 PM   #284
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what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago.
Oh, you make it sound like this has never happened before. Compare our country in 1969 to 1944 (no jets, no pill, Jim Crow south, no TV, 48 states, a unified country at war, pre-atomic age and no major league baseball team west of St. Louis. I mean c'mon.

Change is good for a society but is all change for the better? Include me in with those that don't count exploding government spending, exploding debt, exploding births out of wedlock, the rise of multiculturalism & Identity Politics and Autotuned pop music as "positive' change in the past 25 years.
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Old 05-01-2010, 09:29 PM   #285
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and no major league baseball team west of St. Louis.
Heh.

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and Autotuned pop music
Heh.
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