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Old 05-01-2010, 04:25 AM   #256
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Illegal aliens are explicitly barred from getting any kind of federal government benefits. Period end of discussion.

This is probably the most widespread complete and utter falsehood in the entire political discourse.
Two words. Anchor baby.

Look at the numbers. Look at the instant benefits. And look at the costs to states.
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:33 AM   #257
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Two words. Anchor baby.

Look at the numbers. Look at the instant benefits. And look at the costs to states.
Look at reality.

Look at the costs for future prevention, look at the cost for deportation, and look at the cost when you have to actually pay full price for produce, construction, house keeping, etc...

The fiscal conservatives haven't pulled out their calculators latley, they're letting their fear take over.
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:35 AM   #258
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Awhile back in reference to California approaching 2/3 hispanic kindergarten rooms. You were very concerned, you never told us why but it was a moment when you let your guard down...
I do remember that. And while those are 2005 stats I'm sure it's still true. My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:36 AM   #259
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My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?
neither can a decent number of white americans. now that's concerning.
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:49 AM   #260
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I do remember that. And while those are 2005 stats I'm sure it's still true. My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?
Well, like I said back then, it's a double edged sword. Isn't it suppose to be majority rule? And why are we judging by kidergarten terms?

The fear is very xenophobic...
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:31 AM   #261
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Somehow I can't imagine you ever expressing the same sentiment substituting "a member of the Tea Party" for "illegal immigrant." I really can't.


i guess you're right. illegal immigrants come here to work hard and better themselves, Tea Partiers want more money and are scared of black people.
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:33 AM   #262
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Or except for the empirical evidence thing:
The Pew Hispanic Center study from February 2009 found that even though Hispanics make up 13 percent of the adult population, they accounted for 40 percent of sentenced federal offenders in 2007.

i see -- all Hispanics are illegal? all Hispanics are immigrants?

would you like to make the comparisons with all those legal african-americans?

you're not doing a good job with the whole we're-really-not-racists thing.

the fact remains that cities with high immigrant populations have lower crime and are generally better places to live.
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:31 PM   #263
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My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?
Not at all.

It's very common among immigrant children of all backgrounds not to speak English when they enter kindergarten. Almost everyone I know (people in their late 20s/30s) who was born to Chinese, Polish, Indian, Ukrainian, Pakistani, Filipino, etc parents did not speak English when they started kindergarten. They were all fluent by grade 1.

If you read up some stuff on ESL and language retention rates at different ages, you'll realize quickly that this isn't a problem at all.

For the record, and anyone wondering, English is my third language.
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Old 05-01-2010, 01:26 PM   #264
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Can we see your papers?
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Old 05-01-2010, 01:37 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Two words. Anchor baby.

Look at the numbers. Look at the instant benefits. And look at the costs to states.
Three words. Read my post.

I said illegal aliens can't get benefits.

Anchor babies, whether you like it or not, are factually not illegal aliens.

I would be shocked if "anchor babies" are any more than a small fraction of the cost of Medicaid or school lunches or Head Start in any state.

Plus, what hand outs are available?

There is no program that I know of that hands out free cash to ANYONE, citizen or not.

It just pisses me off to no end when people get up and say "oh, years ago, we didn't have all these hand outs."

That's right. Before Clinton reformed welfare, we actually did have something that came closer to a hand out system(unintentionally, FDR never wanted it like that).

When this lady was growing up, we were building public housing as bad as 7 Towers in Dublin every 2 minutes in America.

In 1970, we had Milton Friedman and Richard Nixon proposing to give every man woman and child $3,000.

Please, all these elderly people lived in a time when hand outs were a lot more common and acceptable than they are now.

Again, I don't support illegal immigration.

I don't have too much sympathy for those who would do illegally what many in the same circumstances(poverty, violence in Mexico) wait years to do legally.

We just have to be realistic in dealing with it, and that means recognizing that we have dropped the ball in the past- both parties- and now 11 million are here. How do we deal with that? Mass deportations are unrealistic. The best bet is to fine heavily, re coup back taxes, send them to the back of the citizenship line and get the border under control. This is what comprehensive immigration reform does.
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Old 05-01-2010, 01:47 PM   #266
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I do remember that. And while those are 2005 stats I'm sure it's still true. My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?
How do you reason that 13% of Hispanics are illegal??

Hispanics have been the fastest growing demographic in this country for a while now, and the vast majority are legal. Illegals are not what analysts talk about when they refer to the Latino surge. Latinos are voting- they're legal.

Plus, stop with the fear tactics. Everyone is required to learn English in our public school systems and immigration reform would only strengthen this requirement.

Would I rather see people speaking English more regularly on the street, assimilating to our culture? Of course I would. That is something I think previous generations of immigrants did much, much better than a lot of Hispanic immigrants do now.

Would I prefer that 2 Hispanic people not talk in Spanish past me when I am right in between them(I know the language, so I can tell they are insulting me, but still)? Of course.

However, that does not mean they do not know English.

Especially if you go to school, tests, evaluations, teaching, etc is all done in English. English Second Language students may have 1 hour of the day devoted to brushing up their English skills with the help of someone who speaks their native language. Other than that, its English.

So most of the kinder kids can speak English.

I would like to emphasize what Irvine said.

You think Hispanics are winning the legal resident/incarcerated ratio??

African Americans, almost all of whom are legal, have been well ahead of them for quite some time now.

Either way, that is not very relevant to the discussion as we are talking about illegal aliens, not the percentage of legal Hispanics compared to the percentage of incarcerated population.

Illegal aliens, break all the laws you mentioned, of course and that needs to be addressed, not ignored as some here are doing.

However, as far as this suggestion that they have some inherent tendency toward violent crime because they are illegal, it holds no water.

Reminds me of the Geraldo Rivera-Bill O'Reilly exchange a few years back when Bill O was trying to blame illegal immigration for a drunk driving death. Geraldo flipped out and said "it could have been a Polish drunk, it could have been a Jewish drunk, it could have been a black drunk, it could have been an Indian drunk, it could have been an Irish drunk......"
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Old 05-01-2010, 02:07 PM   #267
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an interesting post from another forum:

"And...as Neal Boortz asks, "What differentiates the old FEDERAL IMMIGRATION BILL and this new ARIZONA IMMIGRATION LAW?"

Little if any. They want to cloud the illegal part of illegal immigrant.
That is why they force the term "undocumented "immigrant or cry "racists" for trying to enforce a law that was known to exist.
They want to appeal to all immigrants legal and illegal for greater support in numbers.

What they avoid are the real motives behind enforcing immigration laws:
They make it a racial issue when in fact it is not.

Immigration is a complex issue which cuts across party lines. Those in favor of “amnesty” or a “guest worker program” include pro-corporate Republicans, elements of the Roman Catholic Church seeking new congregants to replace millions of alienated and excommunicated parishioners, a few Union leaders hoping for new dues-paying members, and liberal Democrats driven by compassion for poor illegal immigrants seeking a better life. Those opposing the “guest worker program” include a few racist Republicans and a lot of disgruntled taxpayers who don't want to subsidize social services for illegals. None of the above groups sees the critical problem with illegal immigration (or indeed with uncontrolled legal immigration). The problem is that large numbers of immigrants willing to work for peanuts depresses the wages for all working Americans, including what's left of the middle class.

President Bush and other supporters of a “guest worker program” keep talking about immigrants taking jobs that Americans won't do. That is completely false. There are no jobs Americans won't do. There are only jobs that Americans won't do for the paltry wages corporations pay illegal immigrants. If they were paid a decent wage for their efforts, American workers would pick our crops, collect our garbage, mow our lawns, flip our hamburgers, wash our dishes, and build our houses. If there were no illegal immigrants, employers would have to pay decent wages. They would have no choice. (There are jobs that can't be exported.) Yes, if American workers were paid a living wage, prices would go up. But wages would go up far more, so that more Americans could afford the fruits of their labor. The fact of the matter is that allowing large numbers of immigrants to stay in this country is a subsidy to unscrupulous businesses which employ them and exploit them.

While compassion demands that we provide health care and emergency services to illegal immigrants and their families , and temporary education for their children, we are NOT obligated to provide them with welfare, unemployment compensation, or social security. Second, we must have a secure way of determining who is in this country legally, and then severely punish employers who hire illegals. If they are unable to get jobs or welfare, the illegals will go back home. Yes, controlling the border with more fences and troops may supply part of the answer, but the real solution lies in preventing illegals from earning money in the United States . That will not only encourage many to leave, it will also prevent more from coming here in the first place. Any kind of “amnesty” or “guest worker program” will just have the opposite effect and encourage millions more to risk their lives to get into the country and “cash in.”

If we are truly compassionate, and want to better the lives of poor Mexicans, the way to do it is to help the Mexican people get an honest recount and elect a populist government to replace the oligarchs.
Lets occupy mexico and spread "Democracy,after all they even have oil.
BTW True Democracy are two wolves and a rabbit deciding on what to have for dinner.
Then we can assist that new government of Mexico to better the lives of their own people where they live. Of course, it would help if we got rid of our own oligarchs, too. (After all, they came to power with two stolen elections.) They are the ones pushing the “guest worker program,” because it means lower labor costs for their fat-cat industrialist friends, and therefore higher profits. In the end, it's all about money.
Ethics needs to be factored in as a new concept,required by law of any professional(per professional business codes) After all ,if the corporations have earned the ranks of a "person" with rights and privledges(which need to be limited) then they have a personal liability for violating ethics standard."
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:22 PM   #268
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But your CNN, AP, liberal media dig was funny...
You know what's funny? That you automatically assumed that I'm against the so-called "liberal" media. Just because I'm not the biggest fan of illegal immigration does not make me a staunch conservative.

The reason why I made a "dig" at CNN, AP and Reuters is because I consider them more valid and less biased than, say World Net Daily and Michelle Malkin. That is where I found articles saying Mexico treats its illegals poorly. But I didn't take it seriously because I know those two are biased.

As for why does it matter if Mexico poorly treats its illegals, that is because Mexico is criticizing this law. But if they are the ones mistreating illegals, than who are they to criticize? And notice I said "if".
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:24 PM   #269
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Look at reality.

Look at the costs for future prevention, look at the cost for deportation, and look at the cost when you have to actually pay full price for produce, construction, house keeping, etc...
So, you're OK with companies paying illegals below the minimum wage? You're OK with companies exploiting them?
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:41 PM   #270
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So, you're OK with companies paying illegals below the minimum wage? You're OK with companies exploiting them?
That's not what I said, my point is that those that always argue the financial side of this issue and talk about the "drain" they bring always ignore this part of the issue and look very ignorant doing so...
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