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Old 04-30-2010, 04:15 PM   #211
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I'm not saying there is justification, but my point is you don't need justification anymore. You don't have justification to stop a young person when coming out of a bar until after you ID them, suspicion is enough. And it happens all the time, especially in college towns, they need the revenue.

Since you don't fine those who are here illegally there is no revenue incentive, but my fear is that they will create some kind of quota incentive, and that suspicion will be enough now for certain cops to start harassing people.
Careful here.

I was saying that suspicion justifies the initial stop in the case of the suspected minor at the bar.

Nowhere in the AZ law does it state in any way that certain cops can use "reasonable suspicion" (brown, leaving a construction site, paint on his pants) to justify an initial investigatory stop.

Justification is not a standard, it is just the word I used to describe the reasonable suspicion of being a minor as legitimate versus the illegitimate reasonable suspicion based on race or appearance independent of age issues.

The only standards for stops that exist as far as I know, unless a law enforcement officer or lawyer wants to correct me here, are reasonable suspicion and probable cause. Justification or a synonym thereof does not factor in unless you are describing the use of one of those standards.

I hope I made sense.






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Exactly, I think this law is only designed to pick up votes from the tea bag crowd. That's it. There was no need for the law. Absolutely none.
Well, there you go.

They do not even try to hide it.

The same kind of laws picked up steam at the same time in 2006.

In Massachusetts, we now have local Republican politicians for whom knowing their ass from their elbow in general is questionable, never mind on federal immigration matters! Nonetheless, they are making it the "centerpiece" of their campaigns.

The problem with 85% of the Republican Party and their right wing allies is they could care less about this issue until election time comes around and they can whip up their base over it.

Obama really needs to press forward with immigration reform this year as a solution to this, and really play up the national security, border control, law enforcement and fine provisions of the bill.

Call out the people who say the feds are unwilling to act. When swift action is proposed, they will be the 1st to call it "amnesty" and "surrender" and the 1st to filibuster.
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:16 PM   #212
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Wrong on both statements.

How am I wrong? Do you fine the illegal alien and then deport them? How the hell does that work?



Then tell me why it was needed? And don't give me the BS you said earlier. You don't make cops enforce a federal law that they haven't been enforcing by passing another law. The law doesn't force cops to apply these measures. And if it's the same as the federal law then a memo would have sufficed. So tell me old wise one, how was I wrong?
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:17 PM   #213
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Analogies are hard aren't they, especially when you have to apply thinking...

Let me spell it out for you:

What is the justificiation for going up to a young looking person and asking for ID if they are holding a beer in legal area?

Suspicion that they might be under 21. You can't prove they are a minor until you ID them. Some people who are 21 look much younger. That is all you need, is that suspicion.

So how will suspicion be applied to this law?

If you can come up to me and ask for my ID only because I look young, what's to stop you from coming up to me only because I look like I'm not a legal citizen. It's all based upon subjective looks.
No it's not. Once you show a valid ID the discussion is over.
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:19 PM   #214
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How am I wrong? Do you fine the illegal alien and then deport them? How the hell does that work??
Read the bill and get back to us.

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Old 04-30-2010, 04:21 PM   #215
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Careful here.

I was saying that suspicion justifies the initial stop in the case of the suspected minor at the bar.

Nowhere in the AZ law does it state in any way that certain cops can use "reasonable suspicion" (brown, leaving a construction site, paint on his pants) to justify an initial investigatory stop.

Justification is not a standard, it is just the word I used to describe the reasonable suspicion of being a minor as legitimate versus the illegitimate reasonable suspicion based on race or appearance independent of age issues.

The only standards for stops that exist as far as I know, unless a law enforcement officer or lawyer wants to correct me here, are reasonable suspicion and probable cause. Justification or a synonym thereof does not factor in unless you are describing the use of one of those standards.

I hope I made sense.
No, I'm not following you.

Is driving as an illegal driver a moving violation? Why yes it is. So my point is what is stopping them in this verbage, I haven't found anything.

You can get pulled over for suspicion for a lot of other things, so where is the verbage that stops profiling? It doesn't exist.
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:22 PM   #216
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Read the bill and get back to us.

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I have.

Now did you read my post? Please answer the specific questions... Come on at least try.
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:23 PM   #217
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No, I'm not following you.

Is driving as an illegal driver a moving violation? Why yes it is..
But you won't get pulled over for it.

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Old 04-30-2010, 04:25 PM   #218
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No it's not. Once you show a valid ID the discussion is over.
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You just proved my point, AGAIN!

Thank you.

So once the person is asked for ID under suspicion for being illegal and he produces valid ID the discussion is over as well...

Except, that he shouldn't have been asked in the first place.
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:25 PM   #219
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But you won't get pulled over for it.

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But the new law allows for it, so why not?
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:26 PM   #220
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I have.

Now did you read my post? Please answer the specific questions... Come on at least try.
Yes, and I already did. That you claim my answers are BS makes my answers moot to you-but not most Americans and Arizonians.

If you read the bill it says an illegal can be fined.

And it says only after probable cause can an officer ask to prove citizenship.
The officer can't pull somebody over at random.

So, your point is what then?

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Old 04-30-2010, 04:27 PM   #221
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But the new law allows for it, so why not?
No, it doesn't-you haven't read the bill.
Show us where it says or allows for pulling over anybody at random.

We're waiting.

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Old 04-30-2010, 04:33 PM   #222
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If you read the bill it says an illegal can be fined.
Federal law says that I.C.E. must be contacted. How do you fine someone who is being deported and doesn't have any means to follow up by?

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And it says only after probable cause can an officer ask to prove citizenship.
The officer can't pull somebody over at random.

So, your point is what then?

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You've already proven that suspicion is enough
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:34 PM   #223
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No, I'm not following you.

Is driving as an illegal driver a moving violation? Why yes it is.
Brush up on your moving violations......

No, its not. The law very clearly states that reasonable suspicion of being illegal is not grounds for the initial stop, but developed later after another lawful encounter. Be it a traffic violation or a general suspicion of the guy pacing back and forth by the bank.


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So my point is what is stopping them in this verbage, I haven't found anything.
The part about vehicle stops from an existing traffic offense under AZ law takes care of vehicle situations.

The part about "lawful encounters" takes care of situations where a vehicle is not present.

In the ambiguity of "reasonable suspicion" and "lawful encounter" which has always existed, these are not new words, I see some potential for abuse but that is tempered by the fact that the last thing the cops want are lawsuits, and the last thing they are is enthusiastic about enforcing this law.

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You can get pulled over for suspicion for a lot of other things, so where is the verbage that stops profiling? It doesn't exist.
Yes, suspicion of violating any law is grounds for being pulled over.

However, the AZ law, in the verbage I mentioned above, makes clear that reasonable suspicion of being illegal can not justify an initial stop.

Again, probably precisely because no one could come up with a definition for reasonable suspicion of illegal status that did not focus on race/appearance.

The suspicion to justify the initial stop has to be a broken taillight or a guy smoking a joint. Or exceeding the speed limit.

If an illegal immigrant is deported after being pulled over for one of these reasons, but the cops primarily suspected him of being illegal and would have left him alone w/the taillight otherwise, that is called a pretext stop. It is an important tool for law enforcement and has been upheld 9-0 by the Supreme Court on a number of occasions.

The cops need to be able to go on hunches sometimes. "I think he's a crack dealer, he just left that crack house. Nothing says "crack" to me except my instinct, but hey, he's 3 over the limit. I am going to stop him and investigate further." Then they see a baggie and there is probable cause to search the car, find the crack, etc.

I don't feel anyone in this kind of situation was violated in any way.

If you are going to commit a crime, including being in the country illegally, the moral of the story always has been and still will be with this law, obey all traffic laws!


Bottom Line:

Reasonable suspicion is enough to question John Q Frat Boy with the beer who looks to be a bit under 21.

Reasonable suspicion is not enough to question Pablo the suspected illegal.
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:36 PM   #224
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U2387 is brilliant beyond his years.

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Old 04-30-2010, 04:42 PM   #225
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No, it doesn't-you haven't read the bill.
Show us where it says or allows for pulling over anybody at random.

We're waiting.

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Quote:
A PEACE OFFICER MAY LAWFULLY STOP
21 ANY PERSON WHO IS OPERATING A MOTOR VEHICLE IF THE OFFICER HAS REASONABLE
22 SUSPICION TO BELIEVE THE PERSON IS IN VIOLATION OF ANY CIVIL TRAFFIC LAW AND
23 THIS SECTION.
ANY civil traffic law. Well that inclues driving illegally, so if you only need suspicion, there you go.
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