Arizona bill 1070 - Page 14 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-30-2010, 09:24 AM   #196
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U2387 View Post
But as far as the text of the law goes, they still need something else to stop the person in the 1st place.
This isn't true. Just like my minor in possession example earlier, a cop can approach anyone under suspicion that they are breaking the law by being here illegally.
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 11:30 AM   #197
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 07:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
This isn't true. Just like my minor in possession example earlier, a cop can approach anyone under suspicion that they are breaking the law by being here illegally.
The minor in compsumtion law is based on behavior, not appearance.

Correct about suspicion though.

As a cop will approach any vagrant Caucasian as well for example-out of suspicion.
If the vagrant Caucasian is an undocumented Russian with no ID, guess what-he's gone.

If you're a vagrant regardless of your skin color, hanging out on private property- be prepared to show a valid ID.

If you have a problem with that -rewrite the vagrancy laws of Az, and rewrite minor in consumption laws for minors as well- for that matter too.

What's so difficult about obeying the laws of the state?

I'm sure if any Az Cop walks up to any person for no reason and the first question out of the cops mouth is, "Where are your papers"? could have their case thrown out completely.

<>
__________________

__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 11:54 AM   #198
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond View Post
The minor in compsumtion law is based on behavior, not appearance.
But the cop doesn't know if they are a minor until they ask for ID, and that's my point. I didn't look 21 when I was of age and I got approached all the time, it had nothing to do with behavior, it was appearance.

I "looked" like a minor, so what if someone "looks" like an illegal alien?


Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond View Post
Correct about suspicion though.
Well you just disproved every supporters talking point.

So you can be asked for your papers based on nothing but the way you look.

So let me ask you, since no one has been brave enough to answer it yet...

If this AZ law is only there to enforce the Federal law, then why the law? Why not just a memo? You don't write laws just to tell cops to enforce the Federal ones...
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 01:43 PM   #199
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 07:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post









...
Quote:
I "looked" like a minor, so what if someone "looks" like an illegal alien?
Cop can't ask.

Quote:
So you can be asked for your papers based on nothing but the way you look.
Only if you broke another law first.

Quote:
Well you just disproved every supporters talking point
.

No, I didn't. You don't seem or want to understand the law.


Quote:
If this AZ law is only there to enforce the Federal law, then why the law?
The problem was the Fed's were not enforcing it, therefore forcing us to use this mechanism as a stop gap.


Quote:
Why not just a memo? You don't write laws just to tell cops to enforce the Federal ones

We needed something with teeth in it, since the Feds have been asleep at the wheel. You don't have a problem w the citizens of Az. lawfully protecting themselves now do you?

Quote:
But the cop doesn't know if they are a minor until they ask for ID, and that's my point. I didn't look 21 when I was of age and I got approached all the time, it had nothing to do with behavior, it was appearance.

I now see your point, BVS.
Apparently minor in consumption laws and this new Immigration Law are not the same thing. The Immigration Law provides more protection and sensitivity.

<>
__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 01:53 PM   #200
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,887
Local Time: 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U2387 View Post
So I had a false impression of the intrusiveness of this law......
Me too. I had the same reservations at first. But it appears that Arizona has tried to mimic the federal laws concerning illegal aliens.

Again, it's in the courts now where it belongs. Hopefully that will give us some clarity and the states will have a better idea of their options.
__________________
Bluer White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 01:55 PM   #201
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,887
Local Time: 09:54 AM
It's good to have a man on the scene, diamond
__________________
Bluer White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 02:06 PM   #202
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond View Post
Only if you broke another law first.
Can you please show me this verbage?

If you are here illegally, then you are breaking the law. Everything I've read from lawyers who have actually read the law says this is the case. Just like a young person holding a beer might be in suspicion of breaking the law, so is anyone now in Arizona.

If it's the same as the Federal law then you don't need to rewrite it. Just because you rewrite it doesn't mean cops will change what they do.
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 02:45 PM   #203
Refugee
 
U2387's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,217
Local Time: 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Can you please show me this verbage?

If you are here illegally, then you are breaking the law. Everything I've read from lawyers who have actually read the law says this is the case. Just like a young person holding a beer might be in suspicion of breaking the law, so is anyone now in Arizona.

If it's the same as the Federal law then you don't need to rewrite it. Just because you rewrite it doesn't mean cops will change what they do.
I guess this is going to hinge on how Police/Courts, etc interpret the "any other lawful encounter" verbage.

Can we all agree that the vehicle can not be stopped simply based on reasonable suspicion that someone is illegal?

So that leaves non vehicle encounters.

Minor in possession laws are quite different. Age and race are 2 factors you can not control, but unlike with race, there is a legitimate justification for applying laws differently by age group. I am no expert, but due to physical make up, brain development, etc we don't think its a good idea to be drinking when you are under 21. So reasonable suspicion of being underage is enough in that case for law enforcement to question. When is there ever a justification to stop someone because of their race?

To me, any other lawful encounter says they need a reason to stop in the first place. The reasonable suspicion of being illegal develops in the course of the lawful stop. I think from reading the law further that Diamond is right, if you just walked up to someone who looked the part and said "where's your papers" that would be a very, very weak case.

The lawful encounter criteria was developed in AZ probably because no one can come up with a "reasonable suspicion" criteria for an initial stop that does not center on race or appearance thereof. In other words, the suspicion comes from gathering information that the officer can not gather from just looking at the car and driver(i.e. I.D., unwillingness to answer questions, etc).

Again, I think this law, with its lack of definition of key points like "reasonable suspicion" and "lawful encounter" leaves far too much ambiguity for Police and citizens alike, and is just inviting a bunch of costly court battles.

It is my conclusion that this law really will not pick anyone up that could not be picked up today without abuses and a major court battle that in all likelihood, the Police will lose or bargain out.

How extensive will the abuse be? My instinct is not very extensive, as like I keep mentioning, Police Departments are weary of enforcing this law on its face, never mind when they actually do want/have to enforce it. You can be sure they will be crossing every legal "T" and dotting every "I."

There will be different levels of enforcement by different Police Departments throughout Arizona, different court battles(some by Police Departments and cities against the State, some by affected citizens against Police/State), different results from each.

This law is the antithesis of a clear, effective standard for approaching and solving a problem. It is this fact, not the over hyped effect on innocent parties, that gives me pause and tells me it is a bad idea.
__________________
U2387 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 03:55 PM   #204
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 07:54 AM
The more I think about it, the stupier the minor in consumption law analogy was.

We also pull over kids who don't look at 16 yrs of age who are behind the wheel of a car.

Some here will then say: "Now, you're picking on minors"

Ludicrous.



<>
__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 04:01 PM   #205
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 07:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Can you please show me this verbage?

.
Here's the bill, look it up yourself:

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 04:04 PM   #206
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U2387 View Post

Minor in possession laws are quite different. Age and race are 2 factors you can not control, but unlike with race, there is a legitimate justification for applying laws differently by age group. I am no expert, but due to physical make up, brain development, etc we don't think its a good idea to be drinking when you are under 21. So reasonable suspicion of being underage is enough in that case for law enforcement to question. When is there ever a justification to stop someone because of their race?
I'm not saying there is justification, but my point is you don't need justification anymore. You don't have justification to stop a young person when coming out of a bar until after you ID them, suspicion is enough. And it happens all the time, especially in college towns, they need the revenue.

Since you don't fine those who are here illegally there is no revenue incentive, but my fear is that they will create some kind of quota incentive, and that suspicion will be enough now for certain cops to start harassing people.




Quote:
Originally Posted by U2387 View Post
It is my conclusion that this law really will not pick anyone up that could not be picked up today without abuses and a major court battle that in all likelihood, the Police will lose or bargain out.
Exactly, I think this law is only designed to pick up votes from the tea bag crowd. That's it. There was no need for the law. Absolutely none.
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 04:06 PM   #207
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 06:54 AM
Looks like an undocumented driver to me

__________________
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 04:09 PM   #208
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 07:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post



Since you don't fine those who are here illegally there is no revenue incentive, but my fear is that they will create some kind of quota incentive, and that suspicion will be enough now for certain cops to start harassing people.






There was no need for the law. Absolutely none.
Wrong on both statements.
Your worries might be projection or transference of your values on to someone else perhaps.

<>
__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 04:11 PM   #209
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 07:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
Looks like an undocumented driver to me

Only a bigot would claim (or joke) one was undocumented by appearance alone.

<>
__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 04:12 PM   #210
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond View Post
The more I think about it, the stupier the minor in consumption law analogy was.
Analogies are hard aren't they, especially when you have to apply thinking...

Let me spell it out for you:

What is the justificiation for going up to a young looking person and asking for ID if they are holding a beer in legal area?

Suspicion that they might be under 21. You can't prove they are a minor until you ID them. Some people who are 21 look much younger. That is all you need, is that suspicion.

So how will suspicion be applied to this law?

If you can come up to me and ask for my ID only because I look young, what's to stop you from coming up to me only because I look like I'm not a legal citizen. It's all based upon subjective looks.
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com